21st Amendment CARS

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21st Amendment CARS

Unread post by heisan » Tue Nov 16, 2021 9:58 pm

This became law yesterday:

http://www.caa.co.za/Legal%20Documents/ ... 202021.pdf

Many far reaching changes across the spectrum here. Well worth a read.

The bit that screwed me was the change in ownership requirements. You now need to own 25% or more in an aircraft to do training on it. I own a 1/6th share in a TMG that I am still doing conversion training on. Can now effectively only do training at a DTO (new type of training organisation), of which none exist. What fun!
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Re: 21st Amendment CARS

Unread post by Still_Learning » Wed Nov 17, 2021 8:17 am

Thanks... and well done for reading 243 pages :shock: :wink:
Pity it's scanned so can't be searched. I see LexisNexis hasn't been updated yet
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Re: 21st Amendment CARS

Unread post by Roger » Wed Nov 17, 2021 9:29 am

heisan wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 9:58 pm
The bit that screwed me was the change in ownership requirements. You now need to own 25% or more in an aircraft to do training on it. I own a 1/6th share in a TMG that I am still doing conversion training on. Can now effectively only do training at a DTO (new type of training organisation), of which none exist. What fun!
Or buy two members shares out ? (even if on a temporary basis)
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Re: 21st Amendment CARS

Unread post by nrm » Wed Nov 17, 2021 10:31 am

Please tell me where that ownership clause is. Thanks
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Re: 21st Amendment CARS

Unread post by FlyingFinn » Wed Nov 17, 2021 11:20 am

nrm wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 10:31 am
Please tell me where that ownership clause is. Thanks
94.01.1

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Re: 21st Amendment CARS

Unread post by Mrb13676 » Wed Nov 17, 2021 11:34 am

how, apart from sheer bloody mindedness does this rule help civil aviation in South Africa?
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Re: 21st Amendment CARS

Unread post by heisan » Wed Nov 17, 2021 11:53 am

nrm wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 10:31 am
Please tell me where that ownership clause is. Thanks
This only applies to NTCA aircraft. Placing TCA aircraft on an ATO for owner training is not covered in the regs (although IIRC there is some TGM somewhere covering this).
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Re: 21st Amendment CARS

Unread post by heisan » Wed Nov 17, 2021 12:08 pm

Still_Learning wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 8:17 am
Thanks... and well done for reading 243 pages :shock: :wink:
Pity it's scanned so can't be searched. I see LexisNexis hasn't been updated yet
I don't think anybody can read all of this garbage. I stick to the parts that affect me.
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Re: 21st Amendment CARS

Unread post by nrm » Wed Nov 17, 2021 12:38 pm

Thank you
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Re: 21st Amendment CARS

Unread post by Eddybear » Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:18 pm

I may make myself unpoplular, but the share issue does kind of make sense.

Buy one gazilionth of a share in my aircraft for R0.55 and you can do owner training.

The problem is probably more a question of where is the cutoff line. 25%, 10%, 5%, 1% ????
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Re: 21st Amendment CARS

Unread post by Volo » Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:07 pm

Perhaps someone would be able to give me simple answer as to why you should have to have any ownership of an aircraft you are being trained on . What difference could it make whether you own it or not ? It is the same aircraft no matter who owns it . It is either airworthy with certificate of airworthiness or not airworthy and has an ATF. It cant be more airworthy because it is listed on a flying schools ATO.
Yet another case of some inventive mind justifying his job by making regulations no one needs .
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Re: 21st Amendment CARS

Unread post by heisan » Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:15 pm

Volo wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:07 pm
Perhaps someone would be able to give me simple answer as to why you should have to have any ownership of an aircraft you are being trained on . What difference could it make whether you own it or not ? It is the same aircraft no matter who owns it . It is either airworthy with certificate of airworthiness or not airworthy and has an ATF. It cant be more airworthy because it is listed on a flying schools ATO.
Yet another case of some inventive mind justifying his job by making regulations no one needs .
To place an NTCA on an ATO, it either needs to be used for owner training, or it must be done under Part 96 which has stricter airworthiness and maintenance requirements (even stricter since Monday).

It is probably OK for them to make sure there is proper maintenance oversight for aircraft, when training is being offered to the general public.
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Re: 21st Amendment CARS

Unread post by V5 - LEO » Wed Nov 17, 2021 6:19 pm

Volo wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:07 pm
Perhaps someone would be able to give me simple answer as to why you should have to have any ownership of an aircraft you are being trained on . What difference could it make whether you own it or not ? It is the same aircraft no matter who owns it . It is either airworthy with certificate of airworthiness or not airworthy and has an ATF. It cant be more airworthy because it is listed on a flying schools ATO.
Yet another case of some inventive mind justifying his job by making regulations no one needs .
.....valid question!

Looks like since the proxy for NTCA aircraft was consumed by CAA, some strange and compromising laws has seen the light in both certified and NTCA. Some of those evolved from the previous laws making it better for aviation - ADSB requirements to come is one, as for the rest, ja-well-no-fine.

Ap's regs and requirements has been altered to the point that some feel it is not worth doing it!

PPL / CPL exams has been stronghandedly marked negative and curriculum material border on ATPL standards.

Understandably there is "kansvatters" in any industry, but they stand out like a pimple in a pigs hindquarter - why not deal with them directly and harsh?

Was there a trend with the "old" laws and requirements that led to more accidents, more deaths and poorer pilots that warranted these alterations - statistics in correlation with growth in the industry plus hours flown should give the correct answer and to be used as guideline for changes. Nilly willy changes leads to once honest people circumventing laws that come back to bite them in the arrrse, not the real incident though!

As you note, when an aircraft is issued with an ATF, the aircraft cannot decide to misbehave when used for training or when a 5% partner flies it. Looks like some of the new laws backtrack on the ability of the CAA or those that authorised the previous laws / licenses and formal paperwork.

The already struggling and small pool of GA owners / pilots are just going to shrink into oblivion. In an already economic downwards trend, this also does not bode well for investors in aircraft building and maIntenance, the homebuilders and entrepeneurs in aviation.

Where does the state think future pilots will be cultivated and trained or are they planning on using foreigners (another sign of distrust in the locals) and the dreams (used to be achievable) of scholars wanting to go into aviation?

I am just flabbergasted......
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Re: 21st Amendment CARS

Unread post by Chalkie » Wed Nov 17, 2021 6:43 pm

Volo wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:07 pm
Perhaps someone would be able to give me simple answer as to why you should have to have any ownership of an aircraft you are being trained on . What difference could it make whether you own it or not ? It is the same aircraft no matter who owns it . It is either airworthy with certificate of airworthiness or not airworthy and has an ATF. It cant be more airworthy because it is listed on a flying schools ATO.
Yet another case of some inventive mind justifying his job by making regulations no one needs .
Dave an edit is required: "or not airworthy and has an ATF" is a contradiction in terms. An ATF and a Release to Service constitutes "an Airworthiness Certificate." I would rather fly some (not all) ATF equipped aircraft, than most flying schools 50 or 60 year old wrecks.
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Re: 21st Amendment CARS

Unread post by Chalkie » Wed Nov 17, 2021 7:11 pm

heisan wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 9:58 pm
This became law yesterday:

http://www.caa.co.za/Legal%20Documents/ ... 202021.pdf

Many far reaching changes across the spectrum here. Well worth a read.

The bit that screwed me was the change in ownership requirements. You now need to own 25% or more in an aircraft to do training on it. I own a 1/6th share in a TMG that I am still doing conversion training on. Can now effectively only do training at a DTO (new type of training organisation), of which none exist. What fun!
Thanks Justin, I doubt I would live long enough to wade through 243 pages of Law? I will leave it to the new generation and remind them... In the 1970's ANR's (Air Nav Regulations) was an A4 book about 6mm thick, including the blue cover...

Perhaps. Just perhaps, everything is over regulated. Perhaps it is all to do with those with 'Social Degrees' who need to justify their status?
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