Boeremeisie (C-Wolf) from Vliegmasjien (New SA Aircraft)

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Re: Boeremeisie (C-Wolf) from Vliegmasjien (New SA Aircraft)

Unread post by Peregrine » Tue Sep 20, 2016 9:47 am

Rainier, your description of "how it works" is, I daresay, rather naive. Other than achieving operational functionality (performance), standards (military or civil) are there for airworthiness / safety reasons. They have been developed over many years, with much blood and sweat. To say that "If the military has a need and there is one solution - guess what - the standards get completely ignored or just loosely applied." is only true of the most unsophisticated and uncaring military procurement system.
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Re: Boeremeisie (C-Wolf) from Vliegmasjien (New SA Aircraft)

Unread post by rainier » Tue Sep 20, 2016 10:28 am

Peregrine wrote:Rainier, your description of "how it works" is, I daresay, rather naive. Other than achieving operational functionality (performance), standards (military or civil) are there for airworthiness / safety reasons. They have been developed over many years, with much blood and sweat. To say that "If the military has a need and there is one solution - guess what - the standards get completely ignored or just loosely applied." is only true of the most unsophisticated and uncaring military procurement system.
That's the official version. Been there, done that. Got the T-Shirt.
I have witnessed how things get done. You can't take that away from me. I'm a "vendor" - remember ?

I am not arguing about the applicability and need for airworthiness standards - that would be daft of me if I would do that. I pointed out the problems. Those are real. The standards are good - but often flawed - I know, I work with them every day. Yes, BTW I am a member of one of the standards bodies that creates these documents (RTCA in the U.S.A). We have generic rules trying to cover everything and specific rules to cover specifics. There are lots and lots of ambiguities and issues around simple grammar, never mind actual technical aspects. Even just plain mistakes. All of this serves to create cost and waste time to the poor companies trying to produce a compliant product - an ideal habitat for an obstructive official.

Back to the topic. So the aircraft in question will be certifed to NTCA standards. What are these standards actually and how do they compare to say a "real" certification to whatever applicable standard ? Obviously there must be major differences - NTCA is a lot simpler, a lot cheaper and a lot faster so it can't be to the same standards.
Now where does the military come in ? What will they want to do if they take a liking to this aircraft and it fills a need ? They will look at options - can we operate this as an NTCA ? Do we even fall under CAA's jurisdiction ? (No). Which of our own standards should we apply. How much can we apply before we will just frighten the vendor off and we loose out on our desirable toy ? What plan can we make ? There are options.

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Re: Boeremeisie (C-Wolf) from Vliegmasjien (New SA Aircraft)

Unread post by rainier » Tue Sep 20, 2016 10:43 am

rare bird wrote:+1 Rainier's comment.
some standards / specs are also deliberately written to exclude a competitor. (seen that first hand!).
Yes. That is true. I once worked for a company that produced a product used in public space. At some point a government agency decided that rules for this needed to be created. The company was invited to write the rules. They did. The rules ended up being tailor made for the companies product. This did not mean that another company could not compete. But it had to essentially make an equivalent product or else it could not certify its product to be compliant. Firstly, this prevented existing products from other companies from complying without (sometimes major) modifications and secondly - it was so rigid development of the product (even the companies own product) was essentially blocked - that was the time I was employed by this company and I was up against the problematic rules this company made for themselves. I bet those very same standards still stand today. Once they are written it becomes an incredibly difficult thing to change.

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Re: Boeremeisie (C-Wolf) from Vliegmasjien (New SA Aircraft)

Unread post by rare bird » Tue Sep 20, 2016 11:04 am

specs / standards usually follow a few years later. I recall when the military used microlight trikes - at that time there was no certification or standards let alone Mil-specs! probably because the project was confidential / secret not many people knew of it so the lack of procurement specs wasn't a problem?
One of the things military buyers look at is proven combat history - so while there may be interest in a new product or novel design concept, many of the actual buyers will only put money on the table after they have seen performance in the field.

the Boeremeisie looks like quite a hefty "mama" to me - at 900 kg empty, she will have to be quite "vris" to perform!
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Re: Boeremeisie (C-Wolf) from Vliegmasjien (New SA Aircraft)

Unread post by Peregrine » Tue Sep 20, 2016 11:22 am

Rainier, your exposure seems to be in the filed of avionics since you mention RTCA? Go and read what NTCA standards are, then compare them with military standards. You will find a huge difference. The differences are not there for fun - they are there to ensure that the buyer receives a safe, maintainable, supportable system with an a satisfactory service life, capable of fulfilling the required mission. Unless one is dealing with a gullible sub-third-World military client, the chances of successfully selling an NTCA aircraft are nil.
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Re: Boeremeisie (C-Wolf) from Vliegmasjien (New SA Aircraft)

Unread post by rainier » Tue Sep 20, 2016 11:44 am

Peregrine wrote:Rainier, your exposure seems to be in the filed of avionics since you mention RTCA? Go and read what NTCA standards are, then compare them with military standards. You will find a huge difference. The differences are not there for fun - they are there to ensure that the buyer receives a safe, maintainable, supportable system with an a satisfactory service life, capable of fulfilling the required mission. Unless one is dealing with a gullible sub-third-World military client, the chances of successfully selling an NTCA aircraft are nil.
I don't think anybody is suggesting selling a NTCA Vliegmasjien to a first World country (although I can well see some scope for success with special forces where different rules apply altogether).
For this, I am throwing our own military into the basket of third World countries (sorry - I know it hurts. It hurts me as well).

Yes of course there are fast differences between NTCA and military or civilian certification standards - Heck this is not even on the same planet.
That is exactly what I alluded to (did I not ?).

Yes, Avionics is my field. I'm the guy behind MGL (sorry if that is not obvious - Avcom has odd policies so I do not sign my posts as MGL - which is what I do on some other forums where that is more welcome).

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Re: Boeremeisie (C-Wolf) from Vliegmasjien (New SA Aircraft)

Unread post by StressMerchant » Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:03 pm

Yes of course there are fast differences between NTCA and military or civilian certification standards
As far as national airworthiness authorities are concerned, aircraft either have a Type Certificate or they don't. The aircraft that don't have a Type Certificate fall into some form of special category, such a Non Type Certified Aircraft.

If someone operated a civilian Gripen in South Africa, would it not be NTCA?
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Re: Boeremeisie (C-Wolf) from Vliegmasjien (New SA Aircraft)

Unread post by rainier » Tue Sep 20, 2016 1:19 pm

StressMerchant wrote:
Yes of course there are fast differences between NTCA and military or civilian certification standards
As far as national airworthiness authorities are concerned, aircraft either have a Type Certificate or they don't. The aircraft that don't have a Type Certificate fall into some form of special category, such a Non Type Certified Aircraft.

If someone operated a civilian Gripen in South Africa, would it not be NTCA?
Perhaps.
I don't know if this is urban legend or not so don't shoot me if it is - the story goes that a 747 from SAA was briefly classified as LS1 (the predecessor of NTCA that was much more flexible) in order to fly it a shortish distance for repairs to a more suitable location.
Perhaps somebody can confirm (either way - correct or not).

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Re: Boeremeisie (C-Wolf) from Vliegmasjien (New SA Aircraft)

Unread post by Peregrine » Tue Sep 20, 2016 1:43 pm

StressMerchant wrote:
Yes of course there are fast differences between NTCA and military or civilian certification standards
As far as national airworthiness authorities are concerned, aircraft either have a Type Certificate or they don't. The aircraft that don't have a Type Certificate fall into some form of special category, such a Non Type Certified Aircraft.

If someone operated a civilian Gripen in South Africa, would it not be NTCA?
It would I think be NTCA. However, the discussion is rather "the other way around" - I doubt very much whether an NTCA aircraft would be acceptable to say the SAAF, who are the certification authority for military aircraft in their service. They are bound (hope this is still the case) to submit any aircraft intended for service to evaluations in accordance with the requirements of a South African derivative of MIL-STDs.
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Re: Boeremeisie (C-Wolf) from Vliegmasjien (New SA Aircraft)

Unread post by StressMerchant » Tue Sep 20, 2016 2:13 pm

I'll admit that I have never seen the SAAF requirement statement for a modern fighter aircraft, but I don't imagine it is a general standard in the same vein as the FARs. Maybe close to Mil-F-8785. However, I can imagine that many categories of military aircraft have a URS that reads something like "must meet the standards of FAR (23/25/27/29) and the following specific requirements...". Equally, the URS may exclude common requirements, eg side-facing seats are common enough for paratroop operations but difficult to certify under current regs such as FAR 25.

Extending this argument, if a local aircraft were to be found capable and fulfill a need, I could foresee that the authority would carry some of the burden of proving suitability. Who certified Rooivalk and Oryx? I seem to recall that a Rooivalk flew under a "ZU" registration (although my memory might be letting me down on that one).

I don't know if the Boermeisie has a future, I don't even know if it will fly. Having been through several certification programs, I can only hope that the team have an insight into the size of the task. But I do wish them well - if the South African aerospace industry is ever going to recover and grow, it needs people who can take initiative.
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Re: Boeremeisie (C-Wolf) from Vliegmasjien (New SA Aircraft)

Unread post by krjockey » Tue Sep 20, 2016 3:59 pm

Peregrine wrote: Unless one is dealing with a gullible sub-third-World military client, the chances of successfully selling an NTCA aircraft are nil.
How would this be different to the 20 or so Bathawks that were sold to Botswana military, or the RV fleet used for training in Nigeria?
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Re: Boeremeisie (C-Wolf) from Vliegmasjien (New SA Aircraft)

Unread post by Fransw » Tue Sep 20, 2016 6:36 pm

krjockey wrote:
Peregrine wrote: Unless one is dealing with a gullible sub-third-World military client, the chances of successfully selling an NTCA aircraft are nil.
How would this be different to the 20 or so Bathawks that were sold to Botswana military, or the RV fleet used for training in Nigeria?

Are they using the Bat Hawks for air to air combat! :shock:
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Re: Boeremeisie (C-Wolf) from Vliegmasjien (New SA Aircraft)

Unread post by krjockey » Tue Sep 20, 2016 7:15 pm

Fransw wrote:
krjockey wrote:
Peregrine wrote: Unless one is dealing with a gullible sub-third-World military client, the chances of successfully selling an NTCA aircraft are nil.
How would this be different to the 20 or so Bathawks that were sold to Botswana military, or the RV fleet used for training in Nigeria?

Are they using the Bat Hawks for air to air combat! :shock:
No, and neither would the Boeremeisie.
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Re: Boeremeisie (C-Wolf) from Vliegmasjien (New SA Aircraft)

Unread post by Fransw » Tue Sep 20, 2016 7:20 pm

Botswana also use the Bat Hawks for nature conservation. I think they have another15 Bat Hawks for that.

Fantastic little aircraft that..
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Re: Boeremeisie (C-Wolf) from Vliegmasjien (New SA Aircraft)

Unread post by Peregrine » Wed Sep 21, 2016 8:35 am

StressMerchant wrote: Who certified Rooivalk and Oryx? I seem to recall that a Rooivalk flew under a "ZU" registration (although my memory might be letting me down on that one).
You are right, the Rooivalk flew under ZU, but that was to enable it to fly at international airshows. The SAAF was responsible for the certification and release to service of the Rooivalk. Similarly with the Oryx, although there was a lot of ride-along with Aerospatiale in terms of similarity.

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