Boeremeisie (C-Wolf) from Vliegmasjien (New SA Aircraft)

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Re: Boeremeisie (C-Wolf) from Vliegmasjien (New SA Aircraft)

Unread post by Peregrine » Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:23 pm

What news is there of this project? It seems to have gone very quiet...
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Re: Boeremeisie (C-Wolf) from Vliegmasjien (New SA Aircraft)

Unread post by Alan Evan-Hanes » Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:44 pm

Seawulf is alive and well with daily progress occuring at Baragwanath. Well worth a visit. Engine is in and running with prop. Avionics and controls being installed. Wings and flaps near completion.
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Re: Boeremeisie (C-Wolf) from Vliegmasjien (New SA Aircraft)

Unread post by Peregrine » Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:27 pm

Any orders?
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Re: Boeremeisie (C-Wolf) from Vliegmasjien (New SA Aircraft)

Unread post by GL » Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:48 pm

Alan Evan-Hanes wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:44 pm
Seawulf is alive and well with daily progress occuring at Baragwanath. Well worth a visit. Engine is in and running with prop. Avionics and controls being installed. Wings and flaps near completion.
Adept engine?
Cooling sorted?
Has it been power tested on a dyno? For how long?
Prop harmonics sorted?
If yes to the above, then that is fantastic news!
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Re: Boeremeisie (C-Wolf) from Vliegmasjien (New SA Aircraft)

Unread post by Peregrine » Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:41 am

In September 2016 AND posted the following:

The unit on display is the Integration Test Rig (ITR) / proof of concept which is hand built. Once successfully flown and provided it gives the results we trust it will, this will flow into a production NTCA prototype (made with production tooling), commencing towards end 2017 / 2018. Thereafter NTCA and military versions will be manufactured in line with orders received etc.

Certification lies well beyond that if it is ever a viable.”


Did this ITR / proof of concept unit ever fly?

What is the purpose of the unit currently under construction at Bara?
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Re: Boeremeisie (C-Wolf) from Vliegmasjien (New SA Aircraft)

Unread post by Darren » Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:37 pm

StressMerchant wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2016 2:13 pm
I'll admit that I have never seen the SAAF requirement statement for a modern fighter aircraft, but I don't imagine it is a general standard in the same vein as the FARs. Maybe close to Mil-F-8785. However, I can imagine that many categories of military aircraft have a URS that reads something like "must meet the standards of FAR (23/25/27/29) and the following specific requirements...". Equally, the URS may exclude common requirements, eg side-facing seats are common enough for paratroop operations but difficult to certify under current regs such as FAR 25.
...
The SAAF requires any aircraft that will receive a Military Type Certificate to be certified in line with DEF STAN 970 or a similar standard that's recognised by the SAAF's Military Aviation Authority, Directorate Systems Integrity.

Typically each acquisition project will include its own set of Military Airworthiness Requirements as a layer over DEF STAN 970, but that varies per project. All onboard avionics software must be certified to DO-178B/C.

The Rooivalk Mk1 Block 1F baseline, for instance, is certified against DEF STAN 970 and accepted as such by SAAF-DSI.

DSI doesn't mess around when it comes to certification and has grounded entire fleets if they were felt to be non-compliant. This was recently done to the VIP fleet at 21 Squadron and to the Caravans because they lacked proper support contracts. Other air forces might've just signed the aircraft out individually.
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Re: Boeremeisie (C-Wolf) from Vliegmasjien (New SA Aircraft)

Unread post by Tony Forrester » Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:54 am

I think that something has been amiss with this whole Adept engine scene. More than a decade has slipped away and yet, nothing! :( When I listen to the folks talk about it, everyone has another tale to spin. Let me recap. Was this engine not developed under a government grant? [our tax money?] And was the idea behind the project "An affordable " locally built engine for the local market? have I got this right so far? Now it stands to reason that such an engine would actually make more money for the company if it was locally built, and then sold overseas. Common sense. And yet, if you call Adept, everything is forever "under further development". Ok, so get a new team of engineers, because something is not happening. As for the comparison with the years to develop a Boeing... please, you are not building a Boeing.
And now for the real question, "Why is the engine being advertised in the USA for, [cannot recall correctly], I think it was 65000 dollars? And as for "feeling out the market to find out how the americans would respond" [which is the story given to us at a Rand show], that one is now tired,.....seeing as this has been in their adverts for over two years. So, please shed some light on this matter, and regain some trust in the aircraft arena. :(
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Re: Boeremeisie (C-Wolf) from Vliegmasjien (New SA Aircraft)

Unread post by Peregrine » Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:45 am

Good observations Tony
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Re: Boeremeisie (C-Wolf) from Vliegmasjien (New SA Aircraft)

Unread post by StressMerchant » Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:51 pm

Darren wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:37 pm
The SAAF requires any aircraft that will receive a Military Type Certificate to be certified in line with DEF STAN 970 or a similar standard that's recognised by the SAAF's Military Aviation Authority, Directorate Systems Integrity.

Typically each acquisition project will include its own set of Military Airworthiness Requirements as a layer over DEF STAN 970, but that varies per project. All onboard avionics software must be certified to DO-178B/C.

The Rooivalk Mk1 Block 1F baseline, for instance, is certified against DEF STAN 970 and accepted as such by SAAF-DSI.

DSI doesn't mess around when it comes to certification and has grounded entire fleets if they were felt to be non-compliant. This was recently done to the VIP fleet at 21 Squadron and to the Caravans because they lacked proper support contracts. Other air forces might've just signed the aircraft out individually.
Nice to know that DSI is still standing. I assume that the people I knew there have moved on. Who is the current chief?

I wasn't aware that they acted as the certifying authority for all aircraft in their fleet. The earlier system was essentially a Type Acceptance process, with certification only undertaken where they had to. The SAAF essentially acted as the certifying authority for three types. The responsibility predated the current international concepts of Military Airworthiness Authorities - the MAA idea only really caught on after the Haddon-Cave inquiry in the UK.

Coming back to the current topic, the concept that a locally designed aircraft could be purchased by the military even if it didn't have a civilian type certificate is not impossible. Particularly if the military acted as its own certifying authority. Of course, this implies a strong airworthiness authority - otherwise you simply end up with a long string of Exceptions or Exemptions or "Non-Compliant / Acceptable" findings on the type certificate data sheet. And, of course, the whole process would not be cheap or quick.

As far as the topic of the current thread is concerned, I'd be very hesitant to bet on its success. However,as I've said many times, best of luck to those willing to try. They stand a better chance than those of us who don't try at all.
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Re: Boeremeisie (C-Wolf) from Vliegmasjien (New SA Aircraft)

Unread post by Fransw » Wed Jan 30, 2019 3:05 pm

StressMerchant wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:51 pm
Darren wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:37 pm
The SAAF requires any aircraft that will receive a Military Type Certificate to be certified in line with DEF STAN 970 or a similar standard that's recognised by the SAAF's Military Aviation Authority, Directorate Systems Integrity.

Typically each acquisition project will include its own set of Military Airworthiness Requirements as a layer over DEF STAN 970, but that varies per project. All onboard avionics software must be certified to DO-178B/C.

The Rooivalk Mk1 Block 1F baseline, for instance, is certified against DEF STAN 970 and accepted as such by SAAF-DSI.

DSI doesn't mess around when it comes to certification and has grounded entire fleets if they were felt to be non-compliant. This was recently done to the VIP fleet at 21 Squadron and to the Caravans because they lacked proper support contracts. Other air forces might've just signed the aircraft out individually.
Nice to know that DSI is still standing. I assume that the people I knew there have moved on. Who is the current chief?

I wasn't aware that they acted as the certifying authority for all aircraft in their fleet. The earlier system was essentially a Type Acceptance process, with certification only undertaken where they had to. The SAAF essentially acted as the certifying authority for three types. The responsibility predated the current international concepts of Military Airworthiness Authorities - the MAA idea only really caught on after the Haddon-Cave inquiry in the UK.

Coming back to the current topic, the concept that a locally designed aircraft could be purchased by the military even if it didn't have a civilian type certificate is not impossible. Particularly if the military acted as its own certifying authority. Of course, this implies a strong airworthiness authority - otherwise you simply end up with a long string of Exceptions or Exemptions or "Non-Compliant / Acceptable" findings on the type certificate data sheet. And, of course, the whole process would not be cheap or quick.

As far as the topic of the current thread is concerned, I'd be very hesitant to bet on its success. However,as I've said many times, best of luck to those willing to try. They stand a better chance than those of us who don't try at all.
+1 for your last paragraph! :smt023
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Re: Boeremeisie (C-Wolf) from Vliegmasjien (New SA Aircraft)

Unread post by lawotschkin » Wed Jan 30, 2019 3:08 pm

.. just out of curiosity - would it not be possible to start as NTCA .. then do flight-tests etc. and go for certification after non certified proof of concept ?
Probably tricky to fund a fully certified development without support of a multi billion corporate in your back ..
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Re: Boeremeisie (C-Wolf) from Vliegmasjien (New SA Aircraft)

Unread post by Darren » Wed Jan 30, 2019 3:42 pm

StressMerchant wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:51 pm
Nice to know that DSI is still standing. I assume that the people I knew there have moved on. Who is the current chief?
Grundlingh I think.
I wasn't aware that they acted as the certifying authority for all aircraft in their fleet. The earlier system was essentially a Type Acceptance process, with certification only undertaken where they had to. The SAAF essentially acted as the certifying authority for three types. The responsibility predated the current international concepts of Military Airworthiness Authorities - the MAA idea only really caught on after the Haddon-Cave inquiry in the UK.
Sorry, my fault, I didn't explain that correctly. My understanding of the process is that unless it's a local aircraft design DSI will issue an MTC based on Type Acceptance, hence the DEF STAN 970 reference. As far as I know the only recent aircraft that the SAAF has been the certifying authority for has been the Seeker 400, though I don't know the details.
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Re: Boeremeisie (C-Wolf) from Vliegmasjien (New SA Aircraft)

Unread post by Mike Wissing » Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:36 am

Tony Forrester wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:54 am
65000 dollars?
:shock:
That's a lot of money............
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Re: Boeremeisie (C-Wolf) from Vliegmasjien (New SA Aircraft)

Unread post by Chalkie » Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:01 pm

Tony Forrester wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:54 am
I think that something has been amiss with this whole Adept engine scene. More than a decade has slipped away and yet, nothing! :( When I listen to the folks talk about it, everyone has another tale to spin. Let me recap. Was this engine not developed under a government grant? [our tax money?] And was the idea behind the project "An affordable " locally built engine for the local market? have I got this right so far?
Now if I compare the conditions and promises given above it takes me back to April 2004 when I placed a $5000 deposit for a position on the first production run of the DeltaHawk Diesel engine. I have a letter of assigned delivery date in May 2005 and a delivery price of $26500 with no extra charge for improvements or modifications.
lawotschkin wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 3:08 pm
.. just out of curiosity - would it not be possible to start as NTCA .. then do flight-tests etc. and go for certification after non certified proof of concept ?
Probably tricky to fund a fully certified development without support of a multi billion corporate in your back ..
That is the way DeltaHawk said they were going to go...
Mike Wissing wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:36 am
Tony Forrester wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:54 am
65000 dollars?
:shock:
That's a lot of money............
Strange coincidence. That was the price for the DeltaHawk in 2009 when I visited Oshkosh.

Oh... I am still waiting for my engine... :roll:
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Re: Boeremeisie (C-Wolf) from Vliegmasjien (New SA Aircraft)

Unread post by Marius Schrenk » Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:13 pm

Chalkie wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:01 pm


Strange coincidence. That was the price for the DeltaHawk in 2009 when I visited Oshkosh.

Oh... I am still waiting for my engine... :roll:
:lol: :lol: You cannot do "crowd funding" if the crowd is one. :roll:
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