SAWS becoming Unafordable

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Chris
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Re: SAWS becoming Unafordable

Unread post by Chris » Mon Nov 29, 2010 1:07 pm

I see the mobile link was removed this morning :(
http://aviation.weathersa.co.za/aviatio ... mobile.php now takes you to the paid page
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Re: SAWS becoming Unafordable

Unread post by RudiGreyling » Mon Nov 29, 2010 1:23 pm

Chris wrote:I see the mobile link was removed this morning :(
http://aviation.weathersa.co.za/aviatio ... mobile.php now takes you to the paid page
Ditto, I think it was already like that last week when I tried to do flight planning...Rudi
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Re: SAWS becoming Unafordable

Unread post by Chris_WIS2 » Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:18 pm

@Romeo:
On your links, here are the new ones. For the first 2, create your own bookmarks once logged in, and the bookmark will hold your credentials:
1) [R10/day subs required] http://www.weathersa.co.za/web/AvRadar. ... m&area=IRS
2) [R10/day subs required] http://www.weathersa.co.za/web/AvRadar. ... area=IRS75
3) We don't have this - I'll ask SAWS if they're continuing it
4) [free] http://www.weathersa.co.za/web/AvSAImag ... &av=SatRGB
5) [free] http://www.weathersa.co.za/web/AvText.a ... m&av=METAR
6) [free] http://www.weathersa.co.za/web/AvText.a ... =m&av=TAFF

@FATBOY
On CA access: CA access to the 'new' site needs to be sorted. For now, you still have access to aviation.weathersa.co.za. As the CA employers send us the list of their employed pilots, SAWS will update that login database, and will then pass the info on to us such that we can give you access. Sorry, but this is going to be time limited by 1) SAWS and 2) the employers

@Chris & @Kosie
On maritime get free: Maritime have to use the public web site with it's free and premium products. Maritime gets the same free products that everyone else does - which is actually a lot.

@Chris:
On your other thread you frequently refer to Barry's 2008 comment that we would not be touching aviation, and you later imply that I have ignored your accusation. Quite simply, back then SAWS had not asked us to help. CA still funded GA, and there was no cross-subsidisation from the general taxpayer. Only this year did SAWS tell us they simply had to move to a user-pays model, and that they needed our help.

@tanglefoot
On MTN locked handsets: Enjoyed the anecdote :)
It's misguided tho; we led MTN into Iran, we absolutely do not get involved in their operations at all. However, the crux of your story is handset locking. This is standard practise across the globe, but was banned by ICASA in SA for RDP-type reasons (handsets can now cascade down the social ranks).

@Jester: just read your reply to the above, quite right.

@VC:
On the original source of "zero rated": Thanks for that - had a mental note to find the source myself. I'd heard that SAWS were very clear in their minds on this, but I didn't have the backup info at hand

@heisan
On legislation and 0 max charge: It'd be helpful if you could specify the clauses that lead you to such a conclusion. We're wide open to input here; but you do need to be a little more specific please.

@D2O:
On public good: Quite right, Public Good is actually quite well defined. It has a lot more to do with getting loads of info out to the masses than it does to safety in voluntary, high-risk, activities.

@Rudi:
On your departure: Thanks for the input. I thought I'd implemented all but 10 of your 45 proposed changes, plus the R10/day idea (for per-use users). I understand SAWS will meet Kosie in January - so we'll stop debating this and await that meeting's output.

@EveryoneElse: Thanks for those of you that offered constructive guidance. We're now at a place where we have:
- a per-use model to ensure that occasional users only pay for what they need
- a flat rate for those that want unfettered access
- We have moved several products to free
- We already have sufficient users for SAWS to keep the service alive for a while at least, and from several users on this forum I believe we have initiatives underway to challenge whether we can force Government to pony up general taxpayer monies to fund this specialist group of users.
Not everyone is happy, and it's been a tough thread, but there's been some real movement and we now need to see if the service is now "sustainable" (the key objective).
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Re: SAWS becoming Unafordable

Unread post by heisan » Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:54 pm

Chris_WIS2 wrote:@heisan
On legislation and 0 max charge: It'd be helpful if you could specify the clauses that lead you to such a conclusion. We're wide open to input here; but you do need to be a little more specific please.
I am not a lawyer, so I don't know if there are loop holes, but the way I read it:

From the Gazette:
SOUTH AFRICAN WEATHER SERVICE ACT, 2001 (ACT NO. 8 OF 2001)
REGULATIONS REGARDING FEES FOR THE PROVISION OF AVIATION
METEOROLOGICAL SERVICES
I, Buyeiwa Patience Sonjica, Minister of Water and Environmental Affairs, has made the
regulations under Section 28 of the South African Weather Service Act, 2001 (Act No. 8 of
2001) regarding fees for the provision of aviation meteorological services as contemplated in
Sections 4(2)(e) and21(1)(b) in the Schedule hereto. The Regulations will take effect on 1 April
2010
From the Act:
4(2) The Weather Service may, in ordel to achieve its objectives-
( e ) charge fees for the provision of any commercial services;
21(1) The Committee must-
(b) determine the level of user charges to be applied to the aviation and maritime
industries by the Weather Service and advise the Minister on the making of
regulations in this regard
The Act says the committee determines the charges, and the minister makes the regulations for those charges. The regulations posted by the minister say the charges will be 'x', not at least 'x', or at most 'x', or at the discression of SAWS 'x'.

The Act makes no provision for SAWS to charge any fees but those posted by the minister.
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Re: SAWS becoming Unafordable

Unread post by Chris » Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:27 pm

Chris_WIS2 wrote: @Chris:
On your other thread you frequently refer to Barry's 2008 comment that we would not be touching aviation, and you later imply that I have ignored your accusation. Quite simply, back then SAWS had not asked us to help. CA still funded GA, and there was no cross-subsidisation from the general taxpayer. Only this year did SAWS tell us they simply had to move to a user-pays model, and that they needed our help.
Not me :wink: The unanswered question was re the volume you need to reduce costs. You said "We're actually very very close to each other IF we can guarantee the volumes." - I asked what those volumes are.

PS - I still believe as a pilot I am entitled to free weather information until the Minister changes the regulation she promulgated in Government Gazette No. 33072 of 31 March 2010 - No. 259 – 31 March 2010 although this probably means a phone call to SAWS
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Re: SAWS becoming Unafordable

Unread post by Romeo E.T. » Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:35 pm

Chris_WIS2 wrote:@Romeo:
On your links, here are the new ones. For the first 2, create your own bookmarks once logged in, and the bookmark will hold your credentials:
1) [R10/day subs required] http://www.weathersa.co.za/web/AvRadar. ... m&area=IRS
2) [R10/day subs required] http://www.weathersa.co.za/web/AvRadar. ... area=IRS75
you must be joking if you think that I am going to pay for this at R10 per day, I would rather delay the flight if I cannot see the bigger picture....I hope the delay doesn't affect you to adversely as a passenger....and my announcement over the PA will refelct this as well.
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Re: SAWS becoming Unafordable

Unread post by TerryE » Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:59 pm

you must be joking if you think that I am going to pay for this at R10 per day, I would rather delay the flight if I cannot see the bigger picture....I hope the delay doesn't affect you to adversely as a passenger....and my announcement over the PA will refelct this as well.
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Re: SAWS becoming Unafordable

Unread post by tanglefoot » Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:07 pm

I liked my anecdote too :wink: There's just a ring of truth to it :roll:
Chris wrote:
Chris_WIS2 wrote: @Chris:
On your other thread you frequently refer to Barry's 2008 comment that we would not be touching aviation, and you later imply that I have ignored your accusation. Quite simply, back then SAWS had not asked us to help. CA still funded GA, and there was no cross-subsidisation from the general taxpayer. Only this year did SAWS tell us they simply had to move to a user-pays model, and that they needed our help.
Not me :wink:
Yea, how can you give "green" Chris credit for pointing out that you can't believe a sodding thing that any director of WIS/FF has to say :(

I guess the same applies now. WIS/FF will dance to the music that the organ grinder plays :!:

PS: Just in case you missed the question. Where is SAWS stake in WIS??? That is after all the ONLY reason that you created the stand-alone company. I know it is a tough question because there is NO stake but I was interested in your response nevertheless.
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Re: SAWS becoming Unafordable

Unread post by Chris » Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:37 pm

Romeo E.T. wrote: you must be joking if you think that I am going to pay for this at R10 per day, I would rather delay the flight if I cannot see the bigger picture....I hope the delay doesn't affect you to adversely as a passenger....and my announcement over the PA will refelct this as well.
Come on RET - it's only the cost of a cappuccino which you wealthy guys can afford. :lol: :lol: :lol: Actually, it is not funny, we are talking about the safety of hundreds of pax here. You just have to wait until your employer sends a list to SAWS and they it will take a while as they are time limited. :evil: :evil:
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Re: SAWS becoming Unafordable

Unread post by Romeo E.T. » Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:45 pm

Chris wrote:
Romeo E.T. wrote: you must be joking if you think that I am going to pay for this at R10 per day, I would rather delay the flight if I cannot see the bigger picture....I hope the delay doesn't affect you to adversely as a passenger....and my announcement over the PA will refelct this as well.
Come on RET - it's only the cost of a cappuccino which you wealthy guys can afford. :lol: :lol: :lol: Actually, it is not funny, we are talking about the safety of hundreds of pax here. You just have to wait until your employer sends a list to SAWS and they it will take a while as they are time limited. :evil: :evil:
Chris..I have a user name and password for the main site using my laptop or desktop and have access to all and everything....except no cell phone access so no updated last minute radar images just before line up
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Re: SAWS becoming Unafordable

Unread post by tanglefoot » Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:12 pm

Romeo E.T. wrote:............I have a user name and password for the main site using my laptop or desktop and have access to all and everything....except no cell phone access so no updated last minute radar images just before line up
THAT is the R350/month plan :roll: It will be rolled out to CA as soon as FF have sorted out all the Avcom flack. :evil:

Biggest problem with IT projects is that they launch a pile of cr@p and then sort it out on the fly. Your problem is different to the GA problem. Take it up with your high paying CA company. After all, you are already PAYING for access.

Chris_WIS doesn't give away numbers easily but from a database of 3000 (5000, who cares it is minimal) pilots if he gets 500 to sign up that is only R125k per month (Doesn't even cover his salary). WHAT would it cost CA to fix THAT small problem :?: Buggerall, that's what. :!:

(Have you noticed how Chris_WIS talks big but puts nothing on the table for scrutiny? Another Business school trick. "If you talk successful you'll be successful". Funny, in my experience the big talkers always go bang a year later)
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Re: SAWS becoming Unafordable

Unread post by RudiGreyling » Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:28 am

Chris wrote:Has anyone been refused an access password? ie if you go to http://aviation.weathersa.co.za/ and register - have you been refused a password to access the site? I am not talking about the special VFR stuff.
If you have you need to let your representative body know so they can inform the regulator.
REGISTRATION ACCESS DENIED see below!

I will reply again and say the current suggested site does not give me minimum information required for safe flight available as free and make mention of items discussed above.
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Re: SAWS becoming Unafordable

Unread post by FAPE » Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:39 pm

Sitting here reading this.

My reaction: Nil, because if I react, saunara career. Hi WIS/FF. My name is Deon and I work for SAWS. Been here 19 years and 5 days.
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Re: SAWS becoming Unafordable

Unread post by cobra » Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:10 pm

As we all know EasyPlan (EasyWeather) is supplied with a data feed link from SAWS......what will happen in future :?: Well, I made a call to Andrea and WIS/FF and the news was not good, no more links :( although EasyPlan will be taking the matter further.

My reason for the call was to obtain the rates for a data feed as advertised on the SAWS website: http://www.weathersa.co.za/web/Content. ... tentID=123 of which the rates have been removed since my call. My request was for an Aviation Data Feed rate but I was informed by the director that this service unfortunately was not available. I could opt for the general "housewife weather" feed at a bargain price of +-R3,500.00 pm.

I hope EasyPlan will be able to win this battle! and I wish her the best of luck. My efforts was aimed at incorporating weather and wind data at level for vfrPlanner, at a small fee to the public :lol:
Last edited by cobra on Wed Dec 01, 2010 6:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: SAWS becoming Unafordable

Unread post by tanglefoot » Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:01 pm

FAPE wrote:Sitting here reading this.

My reaction: Nil, because if I react, saunara career. Hi WIS/FF. My name is Deon and I work for SAWS. Been here 19 years and 5 days.
Hi Deon,

Cheer up. In every cloud there is a silver lining :wink: :lol:

No matter what our greedy gophers (self confessed, I might add - Oh, sorry, not the greedy part - that is mine) get up to there will always be a way forward. We just need to look for it!

FF/WIS has tried to blame CA for us being targeted. This does not make sense as the GA pilots could not possibly make a significant contribution to the costs of SAWS (Let alone pay for Chris, Barry and Richards salaries - not to mention the siphon companies (check other postings if you are in the dark) and the salaried staff doing nothing more than regurgitating what we already had - but then, I digress)

What is CA's take on this :?: Divide and conquor, another well worn strategy. CA seem to be fed just as much cr@p as GA. Surely they are just as fed up as GA. MAYBE, just MAYBE, it is possible to tackle this as an aviation industry :?:

(PS: Chris_WIS, there are unanswered questions. It is time for another one of your wishy washy business school posts :!: )
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