Extent of insurance cover.

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Extent of insurance cover.

Unread post by tbone » Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:54 pm

SAMAA, to what extent does the insurance policy cover members? I now 2.4G answers some of them, but most out there still flies 35 mhz.

Question 1: Say I am visiting a club, There is a member flying that is solo or higher, there is a accident, my car in the parking lot, BUT said pilot was flying with non ICASA certified radio equipment, but he bought it from a shop, although the shop neglected to inform him or her it is a "grey" import, what are the implications, who covers my competition plane?

Question2: Or say a certified TX, but imported a spectrum module and RX, that are not ICASA certified.

Question 3: Paid up member of SAMAA for many years, fly large scale aerobats very well, has flown for more than 15 years but never bothered with a proficiency, an accident happens, who carries the liability?
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Re: Extent of insurance cover.

Unread post by LionelBrink » Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:19 am

tbone wrote:SAMAA, to what extent does the insurance policy cover members? I now 2.4G answers some of them, but most out there still flies 35 mhz.

Question 1: Say I am visiting a club, There is a member flying that is solo or higher, there is a accident, my car in the parking lot, BUT said pilot was flying with non ICASA certified radio equipment, but he bought it from a shop, although the shop neglected to inform him or her it is a "grey" import, what are the implications, who covers my competition plane?

Question2: Or say a certified TX, but imported a spectrum module and RX, that are not ICASA certified.

Question 3: Paid up member of SAMAA for many years, fly large scale aerobats very well, has flown for more than 15 years but never bothered with a proficiency, an accident happens, who carries the liability?
Hi,

The Insurance cover taken out by SAMAA (i.e. it is not underwritten by SAMAA), is extended to all SAMAA members who comply with the necessary gazetted regulations, ICASA requirements & also are in compliance with SAMAA's guidelines (these are documented in the MoP).

In terms of the opening statement, as long as the radio equipment used is ICASA approved - there is no insurance related distinction between using 35 Mhz or 2.4 Ghz equipment. 35 Mhz & the other documented frequencies that are approved by ICASA for RC Model Flying are all covered by insurance and also as long as the equipment is ICASA type approved.

Q1: If a proficient SAMAA member accidently flies into your car at a SAMAA registered field & the equipment used by the pilot was NOT ICASA approved, then the pilot is liable for the damages. The pilot may need to consider legal action against the individual who sold him the equipment to reclaim the damages, but I suspect that you would need someone with legal qualification to better answer this question. If your "competition model" was damaged in the crash in your car, then again you would need to claim damages from the pilot. SHORT Answer: The Pilot is not covered by insurance as they were not in compliance with ICASA's requirements.

Q2: Whilst Spectrum have been type approved for the local distributor, if you imported your own transmission equipment, then YOU are liable for obtaining type approval from ICASA - this has been documented before on other forums (SARFLY I think?) & maybe even in the SAMAA News. Again, this is not a SAMAA restriction - this is something that ICASA requires. SHORT Answer: The Pilot is not covered by insurance as they were not in compliance with ICASA's requirements.

Q3: As far as I know, if you do not have a SOLO & an instructor was not "next to you" when an accident occured, then you will NOT be covered by insurance. So I am not sure about this, but if you have been flying for 15 years, you should really consider applying for your proficiency? SHORT Answer: The Pilot is not covered by insurance as they were not in compliance with SAMAA's requirements for SOLO flight.

If necessary I can forward these questions for further clarification to Keith Nicholls who currently heads up the insurance portfolio, but I suspect these answers will be the same as they have been covered extensively before.

regards,
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Re: Extent of insurance cover.

Unread post by tbone » Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:41 am

Thanks for your time Lionel,

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Re: Extent of insurance cover.

Unread post by In The Haze » Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:42 am

Q3: As far as I know, if you do not have a SOLO & an instructor was not "next to you" when an accident occured, then you will NOT be covered by insurance. So I am not sure about this, but if you have been flying for 15 years, you should really consider applying for your proficiency? SHORT Answer: The Pilot is not covered by insurance as they were not in compliance with SAMAA's requirements for SOLO flight.
Lionel, please check on this, this opens up a huge can of worms for registered SAMAA members and SAMAA registerd clubs. Please quote the relevant para. in the SAMAA procedures manual if this is the case after checking with Keith.

And then can someone please show me how you quote a portion or various portions of a post as I have tried to do here but doesn't appear to work for me :oops:

Thanks Neville
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Re: Extent of insurance cover.

Unread post by LionelBrink » Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:55 am

Hi Neville,

I'll follow up the Q3.

In terms of quoting, using the "Quote" button on the top left of the posting has worked for me.

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Re: Extent of insurance cover.

Unread post by clivem » Fri Aug 27, 2010 7:29 pm

LionelBrink wrote:Q3: As far as I know, if you do not have a SOLO & an instructor was not "next to you" when an accident occured, then you will NOT be covered by insurance. So I am not sure about this, but if you have been flying for 15 years, you should really consider applying for your proficiency? SHORT Answer: The Pilot is not covered by insurance as they were not in compliance with SAMAA's requirements for SOLO flight.

Lionel
Lionel
this is exactly what I am after too. It seems to be a big grey area. The insurance DOESNT require you to be 'SOLO' rated BUT SAMAA's MOP require either you are rated or have an instructor with you ?? otherwise you are in non-compliance?? I cant find the email reply i got a year or so ago from SAMAA when i Questioned this, the answer back then was simply put that SOLO was not a requirement for insurance.

This poses a potentially HUGE problem - most clubs in Natal have NO Heli instructors!! Countrywide there must only be a handfull. ( i am not referring to gauteng, but rather the rest of the country) So this means that new guys at a club cant even begin learn to fly helis.

I quote from the SAMAA heli proficiency test
"The Advanced Proficiency qualifies a pilot to become a Club Instructor and when accompanied by a second
Club Instructor, may test a pupil for Hover and Solo Proficiency"

so if you want to learn to fly helis you may have to drive 200km to the nearest instructor before you can even hover your heli??? I can understand where this is coming from but surely??????? We have one heli "advanced" rating - so can in effect have one club instructor - given we have 12 heli pilots the club instructor will never get to fly himself.........................

at the same time - you can pass a guy (for fixed wing solo) on his trainer and if he passes he can arrive the next day with a turbine powered jet or 250cc Large scale plane and fly without an instructor and that is OK.

Does it also mean that as a fixed wing instructor, you cant fly a glider??? (BTW i have checked and gliders are not in the definition for fixed wing aircraft)

None of us want to complicate things and make 100 different rules after all this is a hobby. But i think what we are saying is we think we are all covered by insurance - but actually were not......................
Maybe we need to go back to having our own club insurance and forget actively encouraging new members to join the SAMAA..........we can rather use the members funds to provide cover as we did in the past.

many thanks
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Re: Extent of insurance cover.

Unread post by LionelBrink » Mon Aug 30, 2010 8:28 am

Hi Clive,

Just a couple of notes re these statements (whilst I follow up on the insurance text):

1. Fixed wing qualification does not enable you to fly Jet Turbines nor Gliders - there are separate proficiencies for these
2. Whilst I cannot comment on the number of rules (nor there diversity), the point of the MoP is to provide the CAA / RAASA, AeroClub, members of public, landowners, & SAMAA members (i.e. all stakeholders), with the necessary guidelines & evidence that RC flying in SA is safe & controlled. If everyone just went out & did their own thing, then chaos would ensure & I gaurantee it would not be long before some authority decided to shut down all RC flying after some person does something that will be viewed as unsafe ...
3. The insurance provided is based on the assumption that RC Flying is safe & controlled - no insurer would touch it otherwise, even though as it is we have only ever been able to obtain this policy from a single underwriter - all others insurers have simply declined.
4. The vast majority of the MoP can be split into 2 categories: admin stuff which is noted for transparency & continuity reasons, and then the flying requirements/guidelines/rules. There are not that many of these & the emphasis is always squarely on safety. Have a look at the SAMAA website - most of these have been extracted with links off the main page to encourage people to read up on them.
5. I cannot comment on all clubs, but the clubs I fly at require appropriate proficiencies, & students under instruction are required to show that they understand the various safety rules (typically a combination of SAMAA's guidelines & requirements for local geography/neighbours) before they are permitted to fly SOLO. Visiting pilots similarly have to provide evidence of approriate proficiency, before they are permitted into the circuit. At least with SAMAA a common set of rules has been established that provides each club with an assumption that a visitor need only be explained local rules - I do not see this as a complication, in fact this appears to be the exact opposite?

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Re: Extent of insurance cover.

Unread post by tanglefoot » Mon Aug 30, 2010 8:30 pm

Hi Lionel,

Two things:

1. Does a powered glider fall under the fixed wing proficiency or glider proficiency :?:

2. You MUST name the clubs that you fly at so that we can go around and see how it is done :wink: (Edit: I'll bring a camera and post on Avcom!)

Regards
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Re: Extent of insurance cover.

Unread post by clivem » Mon Aug 30, 2010 9:27 pm

mmmmm
samaa have nothing on the web about Jet Proficiency (that i can find anyway)
but they do say "fixed wing" includes internal combustion engines, electric, Co2, Jetex etc etc, is a jet not internal combustion??
Lionel i dont want to make your life difficult, but it really seems to me like SAMAA are just looking for ways out....
if fixed wing internal combustion refers only to reciprocating piston internal combustion - does it mean a solo rated guy can fly a Q40 pylon racer in excess of 200kmh?
What about R/C skydivers - are they gliders?? #-o
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Re: Extent of insurance cover.

Unread post by LionelBrink » Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:22 pm

Hi,

From the SAMAA website, http://www.samaa.org.za/mop/PR.14%20Lod ... 0Claim.pdf provides details of the insurance cover in plain English, and specifically lists the exclusions in front, which is more than can be said for most insurance/medical policies:
"Learners who have not obtain solo status may not fly their model aircraft at a
SAMAA registered field in the presence of spectators, unless assisted by an
experienced R/C pilot. Learners who do not comply will not be covered by
the Insurance."
I cannot debate if we agree with this exclusions, as these were agreed as part & parcel of the insurance policy, but as per the previous question raised, this is the reference where the exclusion is explicitly stated.

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Re: Extent of insurance cover.

Unread post by LionelBrink » Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:30 pm

tanglefoot wrote:Hi Lionel,

Two things:

1. Does a powered glider fall under the fixed wing proficiency or glider proficiency :?:

2. You MUST name the clubs that you fly at so that we can go around and see how it is done :wink: (Edit: I'll bring a camera and post on Avcom!)

Regards
Grant
Hi Grant,

To follow up on your questions;

If the model can ROG, then it could be classified as fixed-wing. If the model is capable of gliding, or more specifically that the primary purpose of the model is to fly without an internal power source, then you could classify it as a glider.

Please refer to the SAMAA Fixed Wing instructions guidelines which have been around for more than 10 years - it would caution as being unwise for anyone to publically admit to not complying with the minimum training standards clearly documented therein. All SAMAA affifliated clubs and instructors are expected to adhere to these principles & standards recommended within these. This does not prevent exceptions, but rather implies that compliance is the expected norm!

Why not join us at WHRF this Saturday 4 Sep - its a BOOT SALE/SWOP MEET day & you are welcome to fly as long as you have your indate SAMAA card.

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Re: Extent of insurance cover.

Unread post by LionelBrink » Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:42 pm

clivem wrote:mmmmm
samaa have nothing on the web about Jet Proficiency (that i can find anyway)
but they do say "fixed wing" includes internal combustion engines, electric, Co2, Jetex etc etc, is a jet not internal combustion??
Lionel i dont want to make your life difficult, but it really seems to me like SAMAA are just looking for ways out....
if fixed wing internal combustion refers only to reciprocating piston internal combustion - does it mean a solo rated guy can fly a Q40 pylon racer in excess of 200kmh?
What about R/C skydivers - are they gliders?? #-o
Hi

We are deviating from the topic of insurance & moving into safety, however for the sake of clarity:

Please refer to the JET SIG site for more information regarding flying RC Jets. I understand that their site is under review with some pages being temporarily unavailable at this time. Alternatively, contact Johan Ehlers of SAMJA (contact details are on the back of your SAMAA News) for more information re Jets & the "vlamgat" proficiencies recommended for safe model turbine operations.

Strictly speaking, there does not appear to be any documentation (well, none that I have been able to trace) preventing a SOLO fixed wing pilot from attempting to fly a Q40. However, based on experience, this would be the same as trying to learn to fly RC with a Spitfire: it may be very glamorous, but typically is short lived. The Pylon SIG may also have additional recommendations wrt safety specifically for clubs / organisers of pylon events - Russel van der Westhuisen would be the contact person (please refer to the SAMAA News)

I have read the article on RC Skydivers with some interest in the 1st edition of RC Modelling - but based on the content of that article it sounded more like a parachute than a glider & I am sure that general safety would be sufficient for this type of "model" (which as far as I know is not defined in the CIAM Aeromodelling guidleines either, even though it is RC).

For the record, at present UAV's are also not considered to fall under RC definition (i.e. do not form part of SAMAA's ARO requirements)/ neither are model rockects & FPV is still an emerging class within most international domains & it is probably still a little early to begin expounding unnessessary rules as long as individuals remain with the guidelines of flying legislation & recommended safe flying?

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Re: Extent of insurance cover.

Unread post by In The Haze » Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:14 am

LionelBrink wrote:Hi,

From the SAMAA website, http://www.samaa.org.za/mop/PR.14%20Lod ... 0Claim.pdf provides details of the insurance cover in plain English, and specifically lists the exclusions in front, which is more than can be said for most insurance/medical policies:
"Learners who have not obtain solo status may not fly their model aircraft at a
SAMAA registered field in the presence of spectators, unless assisted by an
experienced R/C pilot. Learners who do not comply will not be covered by
the Insurance."
I cannot debate if we agree with this exclusions, as these were agreed as part & parcel of the insurance policy, but as per the previous question raised, this is the reference where the exclusion is explicitly stated.

Lionel
Lionel,

In the context of the above, please could you define "experienced R/C pilot".

Neville
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Re: Extent of insurance cover.

Unread post by LionelBrink » Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:29 am

In the context of the above, please could you define "experienced R/C pilot".

Neville
Hi Neville,

What would YOU consider to be "experienced"; someone who is SOLO but can barely bring a model into a landing without bouncing pieces off it, or an accomplished veteran who can make pick up any model & get it to perform flawlessly with no effort? I do not believe that this is a formally defined term, so as a generalisation it must refer to some acceptable peer group standard which would likely be similar to the "reasonable person" definition most often quoted in legal cases.

As I implied previously, these are the terms of the insurance cover agreed by the sole insurer willing to provide cover to RC modellers. We can try to dissect these terms to obtain a better understanding, but the outcome of every claim is always based on a case-by-case evaluation basis & the exclusions should be sufficient to support this. Whilst I can emphasise with the need to understand these terms, I am not in the insurance industry & feel like I am hopelessly floundering in my attempts to translate MopP's & insurance terms into more understandable language - I apologise for my shortcomings & sincerely request any other Avcommer's with legal/insurance backgrounds to possibly advise on this term?

Regards,
Lionel
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Re: Extent of insurance cover.

Unread post by In The Haze » Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:30 am

LionelBrink wrote:
In the context of the above, please could you define "experienced R/C pilot".

Neville
Hi Neville,

What would YOU consider to be "experienced"; someone who is SOLO but can barely bring a model into a landing without bouncing pieces off it, or an accomplished veteran who can make pick up any model & get it to perform flawlessly with no effort? I do not believe that this is a formally defined term, so as a generalisation it must refer to some acceptable peer group standard which would likely be similar to the "reasonable person" definition most often quoted in legal cases.

As I implied previously, these are the terms of the insurance cover agreed by the sole insurer willing to provide cover to RC modellers. We can try to dissect these terms to obtain a better understanding, but the outcome of every claim is always based on a case-by-case evaluation basis & the exclusions should be sufficient to support this. Whilst I can emphasise with the need to understand these terms, I am not in the insurance industry & feel like I am hopelessly floundering in my attempts to translate MopP's & insurance terms into more understandable language - I apologise for my shortcomings & sincerely request any other Avcommer's with legal/insurance backgrounds to possibly advise on this term?

Regards,
Lionel
Lionel, I am with you 100% and really am not doing anything other than trying to understand this policy so we can bring it to our members. When the day arrives and questions are asked we can at least answer them with some confidence.

Appreciate your efforts.
Neville
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