Maximum Height for RC

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tanglefoot
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Maximum Height for RC

Unread post by tanglefoot » Mon Oct 04, 2010 9:34 pm

2. No flying above 150 ft (approx 50 meters)
(Gazetted).
Hi Lionel,

You seem to have successfully negotiated the TrevorK issue. Coming up with a solution in the nick of time! Let's see what we can do about another issue (Hopefully without getting me suspended!!!)

Surely if Vic de Vries's column on page 11of the latest SAMAA magazine http://www.samaa.org.za/samaa_news/sept_2010.pdf(as quoted above) is accurate then the publication of the Pattern and Large Scale NATS results in the SAMAA magazine is tantamount to SAMAA condoning breaking of the rules (Please don't tell us that you didn't know that large scale aircraft and pattern planes fly higher than 150ft. Most certainly Bob Skinner couldn't use THAT excuse)

Even if Vic got it slightly wrong (the 140ft limit is for non SAMAA registered fields, as I understand it) the above two SIG's (Not to even mention the gliders) operate outside of legislated limits as a matter of course with no guidance from SAMAA.

Can we fly pattern? With SAMAA and the insurance company's backing? Really?
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Re: Maximum Height for RC

Unread post by LionelBrink » Tue Oct 05, 2010 1:07 pm

Hi,

As far as I am aware the (quoted) gazetted height restriction of 150ft are applicable to RC aircraft flown at sites which have not been registered through SAMAA - i.e. park flying.

I am aware that the SAMAA are currently involved in high level discussions (pun intended) with RAASA regarding the operational height of model aircraft at registered sites & trust that we will be able to provide feedback of this within a "reasonable" time frame.

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Re: Maximum Height for RC

Unread post by tanglefoot » Tue Oct 05, 2010 1:22 pm

Thanks Lionel,

I look forward to seeing what SAMAA comes up with!!!

Grant
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Re: Maximum Height for RC

Unread post by LionelBrink » Wed Oct 06, 2010 7:35 am

Hi,

In the Sep 2010 issue of the SAMAA news (http://www.samaa.org.za/samaa_news/sept_2010.pdf), Percy alludes to some of the parties involved in these discussions. Without intending any disrespect to any of the parties, it should be clear that this process could possibly be time consuming.

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Re: Maximum Height for RC

Unread post by Rudi Pretorius » Thu Jan 06, 2011 2:47 pm

Why not higher than 140f(50m).... what is the reason?
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Re: Maximum Height for RC

Unread post by LionelBrink » Thu Jan 06, 2011 2:55 pm

Rudi Pretorius wrote:Why not higher than 140f(50m).... what is the reason?
This is the defacto restriction as per government gazette & instituted by the CAA across the entire country in terms of full size operations, I believe. Flying at a SAMAA site (i.e. registered) we have excemption for model aircraft to 450 ft which is also ridiculously low, but thats an entirely new discussion.

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Re: Maximum Height for RC

Unread post by Sig_ZA » Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:00 pm

Rudi Pretorius wrote:Why not higher than 140f(50m).... what is the reason?
Erm. Manned aeroplanes. :shock:
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Re: Maximum Height for RC

Unread post by Rudi Pretorius » Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:12 pm

Sig_ZA wrote:
Rudi Pretorius wrote:Why not higher than 140f(50m).... what is the reason?
Erm. Manned aeroplanes. :shock:
Sig_ZA manned aeries are not alowed to fly that low aren't they?
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Re: Maximum Height for RC

Unread post by Sig_ZA » Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:32 pm

150 ft is not wise, but 500 ft or so is very do-able. :D
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Re: Maximum Height for RC

Unread post by Piet Le Roux » Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:28 am

I know that SAMAA have been negotiating for years to have the maximum flying height for models lifted and gazetted and I appreciate their efforts. I presume that aerobatic and gliding competitions can still be held legally thru an agreement with the Aero Club whom controls all aero sports. The problem is with the insurance that SAMAA provide for their members. SAMAA laid down the rules by excluding members that uses FCC (200mW) 2.4 GHz radios from their insurance cover because it’s against ICASA regulations at present, irrespective of the fact that they pose no safety risk. I appreciate their standpoint: they can not sanction illegal practices.

Pattern Aerobatics, for example, needs at least 260 meters (850 feet) take into account pilot error and you need at least 300 meters (984 feet). So in the same contexts SAMAA would have to withdraw insurance cover for all pilots competing in or practicing for these sports until the changes have been gazetted.
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Re: Maximum Height for RC

Unread post by clivem » Fri Jan 07, 2011 7:55 pm

Piet Le Roux wrote:I know that SAMAA have been negotiating for years to have the maximum flying height for models lifted and gazetted and I appreciate their efforts. I presume that aerobatic and gliding competitions can still be held legally thru an agreement with the Aero Club whom controls all aero sports. The problem is with the insurance that SAMAA provide for their members. SAMAA laid down the rules by excluding members that uses FCC (200mW) 2.4 GHz radios from their insurance cover because it’s against ICASA regulations at present, irrespective of the fact that they pose no safety risk. I appreciate their standpoint: they can not sanction illegal practices.

Pattern Aerobatics, for example, needs at least 260 meters (850 feet) take into account pilot error and you need at least 300 meters (984 feet). So in the same contexts SAMAA would have to withdraw insurance cover for all pilots competing in or practicing for these sports until the changes have been gazetted.
yeah - well said piet. =D> =D> =D>
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Re: Maximum Height for RC

Unread post by tanglefoot » Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:52 am

clivem wrote:
Piet Le Roux wrote:I know that SAMAA have been negotiating for years to have the maximum flying height for models lifted and gazetted and I appreciate their efforts. I presume that aerobatic and gliding competitions can still be held legally thru an agreement with the Aero Club whom controls all aero sports. The problem is with the insurance that SAMAA provide for their members. SAMAA laid down the rules by excluding members that uses FCC (200mW) 2.4 GHz radios from their insurance cover because it’s against ICASA regulations at present, irrespective of the fact that they pose no safety risk. I appreciate their standpoint: they can not sanction illegal practices.

Pattern Aerobatics, for example, needs at least 260 meters (850 feet) take into account pilot error and you need at least 300 meters (984 feet). So in the same contexts SAMAA would have to withdraw insurance cover for all pilots competing in or practicing for these sports until the changes have been gazetted.
yeah - well said piet. =D> =D> =D>
I think Piet has stated what we all know but have been pussy footing around. Anyway, it is said and in the same breath a two meter glider is likely to require the same "box" to fly in not to mention Large Scale and Jet whether for competition or not.

It is not JUST about increasing the box. For those that attended the Masters competition in Bloem at CRF in October last year they might remember the Cell C Harvard formation that came over at about 300ft and had me diving for the ground halfway through a stall turn.

My feeling is that no matter WHAT is gazetted and ruled and written down in small print it is up to us to stay out of the way of full size aircraft. Until SAMAA can implement an FAD - Danger Area, FAR - Restricted Area or FAP - Prohibited Area to be legislated for each and every RC club we will never have our "own" space. In the event of the above many RC clubs would be closed down as they are already operating within someone else's controlled airspace.

The 400ft limit is because full size aircraft can operate down to 500ft outside built up areas (applies to most clubs) and there is little to no chance of them changing rules like that to suite a couple of hobbyists. In the vicinity of an airfield the 500ft doesn't apply and the concept of 'built up' is rather vague and if your club is within another controlled area you don't even have access to the 400ft no matter what SAMAA tells you.
91.06.32 (1) Except when necessary for taking off or landing, or except with prior written approval of the Commissioner, no aircraft –

(a)
shall be flown over built-up areas or over an open-air assembly of persons at a height less than 1 000 feet above the highest obstacle, within a radius of 2 000 feet from the aircraft;

(b)
when flown elsewhere than specified in paragraph (a), shall be flown at a height less than 500 feet above the ground or water, unless the flight can be made without hazard or nuisance to persons or property on the ground or water; and
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Re: Maximum Height for RC

Unread post by Sig_ZA » Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:50 pm

@tanglefoot

How would you interpret this when is comes to slope soaring?
Get's a little more complicated.
Also there is also likely to be much more competition for the same air space.
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Re: Maximum Height for RC

Unread post by tanglefoot » Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:49 pm

Sig_ZA wrote:@tanglefoot

How would you interpret this when is comes to slope soaring?
Get's a little more complicated.
Also there is also likely to be much more competition for the same air space.
My experience with slope soaring (Cloud 9 at Sedgefield) was that the paragliders and hangliders were relatively at ease with competing for airspace. They used my model to judge where the best lift was and I stayed well clear of them. We discussed the matter on the ground and I always made sure that I was well clear. Nevertheless, if I messed up I would never forgive myself. Bottom line is communicate and respect the fact that a REAL life is at stake on the other side.

It is not a matter of interpretation IMO. I fly both sides of the curve and I can tell you first hand how difficult it is to spot an RC runway at 200km/h from 180m (not even two rugby fields) up, let alone spotting a 2m RC plane (forget about smaller). Fortunately with Pattern we fly with a caller so there is always someone who can look around to see what is happening behind you. With sport flying it is not so easy. It will be a sad day for us all if there is an accident.

There are model flying fields so close to OR Tambo you could spit at the passing traffic. In full size I am not allowed above 500ft from Rand all the way to Springs and that is along the N12, nearly 8km's from OR Tambo.

If you are in the Jhb area I will gladly let you try to spot a couple of full size airfields (let alone RC airfields and planes, if you can) while we dodge the TMA's and CTR's around Joburg and follow the instructions from Air traffic control keeping you down low so that you don't interfere with their 'controlled' traffic. Maybe Lionel would like to come along as well :?:
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Re: Maximum Height for RC

Unread post by LionelBrink » Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:21 am

Hi,

For the record, we expect all glider pilots to fly with a caller as per aerobatics. In my experience, RC slope soaring has always coexisted reasonably well with the paraglider/hang-gliding fraternity through communication & mutual respect. yes, I would gladly hitch a ride to view first hand the harrowing "controlled traffic airspace" experience.

Fundamentally we all know we need to avoid full size aviation, albeit 400 mm or 400 ft above ground. But at present we do not seem to have any alternates wrt FAD, FAP, or FAR which may become necessary for future development of the sport side within this country, particularly regarding thermal RC gliding, large scale & Jets, whilst the benefits would extend to other disciplines & even clubs.

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