QUESTION TO SAMAA: Solo grading on helis for far away clubs

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l0n3i200n
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QUESTION TO SAMAA: Solo grading on helis for far away clubs

Unread post by l0n3i200n » Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:22 pm

I was wondering can 2 fixed wing SAMAA qualified instructors award a Heli hover or Solo proficiency.
Provided that the club has

1. No current MHSA heli instructors or even a heli club instructor.
2. The safety and pre-checks be concluded based on the club rules and the layed out procedures in the SAMAA heli proficiency document (SHPD). http://www.samaa.org.za/pdf/heli_prof_2007.pdf
3. The flight being judged according to the maneuvers / grading procedure as laid out in the SHPD?


Now I know this has been brought up numerous times that you aren't covered if you don't have a solo or basic proficiency to operate your model. I have no problem with the requirement. I do however believe the pilot should have a fair chance to obtain it at his/her club. Since basic proficiencies is mostly to firstly check if the pilot is capable of hovering/controlling the machine, surely a "recognized" SAMAA instructor would be able to identify any "safety" problems and an uncontrolled flying objects. Also how difficult should it be for a fixed wing pilot to follow the laid down SAMAA proficiency procedure descriptions and rate a pilot based on the wording and the pilot actually following the wording? Surely the basic proficiency is not a "competition" flight if you follow the wording and do the basics right then why drive millions of miles to a different place?


http://www.rchq.co.za/smf/index.php/top ... l#msg78729
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Re: QUESTION TO SAMAA: Solo grading on helis for far away cl

Unread post by LionelBrink » Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:44 pm

Hi,

My initial thoughts are that the average fixed wing instructor is not sufficiently competant to pilot, let alone judge a helicopter flight. Secondly, an instructor is required to assess the flying skills of an individual remotely piloting a model of a specific type & if comfortable will certify that the individual is competant within a measured skill level to control that type of model - in my own experience, fixed-wing & heli's are so completely different that these cannot be graded using the same instructor skill set.

However, this gives rise to the classic chicken & egg situation: how do your train for a proficiency if you do not yet have a solo & cannot have an instructor present as per the safety guidelines?

Please let me know were you are located (i.e. the nearest SAMAA registered airfield) & I will pass this onto the Heli SIG who should be able to assist you: first with some guidance towards achieving the proficiency & then with the instruction evaluation.

Regards,
Lionel
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Re: QUESTION TO SAMAA: Solo grading on helis for far away cl

Unread post by l0n3i200n » Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:10 am

Hi Lionel
Thanks for the reply, I'm currently a member of the Brits Radio Fliers. We are located in Brits North-West province.
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Re: QUESTION TO SAMAA: Solo grading on helis for far away cl

Unread post by l0n3i200n » Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:24 am

LionelBrink wrote:Hi,

My initial thoughts are that the average fixed wing instructor is not sufficiently competant to pilot, let alone judge a helicopter flight. Secondly, an instructor is required to assess the flying skills of an individual remotely piloting a model of a specific type & if comfortable will certify that the individual is competant within a measured skill level to control that type of model - in my own experience, fixed-wing & heli's are so completely different that these cannot be graded using the same instructor skill set.

However, this gives rise to the classic chicken & egg situation: how do your train for a proficiency if you do not yet have a solo & cannot have an instructor present as per the safety guidelines?

Please let me know were you are located (i.e. the nearest SAMAA registered airfield) & I will pass this onto the Heli SIG who should be able to assist you: first with some guidance towards achieving the proficiency & then with the instruction evaluation.

Regards,
Lionel
I specifically asked that a non-average fixed wing pilot( SAMAA Fixed wing Instructor) be able to grant a heli hover / Solo. I understand the fact that the models differ and requires different approaches. But to me a well documented proficiency doc exist, and even a non heli pilot can read it and understand the requirements ( bare in mind that the instructor is not judging a comp, but merely trying to ascertain whether the pilot is capable to safely control a model, as for basic safety flight a qualified SAMAA instructor irrespective of the discipline should be able to spot violations. Surely that would be common sense and the ability for a instructor to spot a safety hazard based on rule and regulation violations firstly of the club and the SAMAA

As for the chic & egg, you would be correct. And this problem will persist in future unless we either get more heli capable pilots, increase the amount of instructors or alternatively grant special permission to allow fixed wing instructors to allow a max proficiency grant of heli Solos.
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Re: QUESTION TO SAMAA: Solo grading on helis for far away cl

Unread post by clivem » Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:48 pm

Ok so i got the answer today from SAMAA - here it is, all you need to do is get the guys mentioned up to your club.

It is not the SAMAA management committee’s responsibility to test instructors (remember, we are all SAMAA, not us and them). If a club is pro-active, it will do exactly as Shongweni did… invite Johan Sieling, and Rudolf du Toit, and Arney Sieling to travel to their club to test proficiencies so that the system can be self-sustaining. But, this has to be planned well. The first time (yes, they went twice) nobody had really practiced the schedules, and consequently only a handful of Heli Solo’s got tested. No good for getting the system going. The clubs have to be empowered, and the only way that can happen, is if there are enough qualified instructors, and at least one instructor judge within easy driving distance. (The IJ, together with an instructor, can test other instructors). We have also unfortunately found that people see this as a status symbol: “I’m a SAMAA instructor” but you almost never see further test results from this person.
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Re: QUESTION TO SAMAA: Solo grading on helis for far away cl

Unread post by Spacey » Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:07 am

clivem wrote:Ok so i got the answer today from SAMAA - here it is, all you need to do is get the guys mentioned up to your club.

It is not the SAMAA management committee’s responsibility to test instructors (remember, we are all SAMAA, not us and them). If a club is pro-active, it will do exactly as Shongweni did… invite Johan Sieling, and Rudolf du Toit, and Arney Sieling to travel to their club to test proficiencies so that the system can be self-sustaining. But, this has to be planned well. The first time (yes, they went twice) nobody had really practiced the schedules, and consequently only a handful of Heli Solo’s got tested. No good for getting the system going. The clubs have to be empowered, and the only way that can happen, is if there are enough qualified instructors, and at least one instructor judge within easy driving distance. (The IJ, together with an instructor, can test other instructors). We have also unfortunately found that people see this as a status symbol: “I’m a SAMAA instructor” but you almost never see further test results from this person.
Yeap, and we do take bribes or incentives to travel! I like a fine whiskey myself.................

I don't know who wrote that response but I don't agree with the term "hanful" as stated? Sure the first trip we had to first take care of getting everyone on the same page but if I remember correctly we tested more than 10 solo's that first trip while spending all morning educating. Memory is fading on that trip however, it was a long time ago. Good times regardless. :)

Groete,
Rudolf

PS: The bribes thing is just a little Friday humor..
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Re: QUESTION TO SAMAA: Solo grading on helis for far away cl

Unread post by l0n3i200n » Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:26 pm

Spacey wrote:
Yeap, and we do take bribes or incentives to travel! I like a fine whiskey myself.................
Hey Rudolf

We need a club instructor and someone to help out newbies. Will you travel for fine whiskey?
Also I need a solo - let double up the whiskey then :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Re: QUESTION TO SAMAA: Solo grading on helis for far away cl

Unread post by danie.e » Sat Apr 16, 2011 10:19 pm

I read with interest the various replies and agree that some form of proficiency is required to do heli proficiency tests.

I do however would like to differ from one post where the writer clearly state that a fixed wing SAMAA insructor is not suitably qualified to do a solo heli test.

I am a fixed wing SAMAA instructor, and I fly my heli quite comfortably with all the fixed wing pilots at the club. I understand all the requirements to fly a heli, build my own heli, set up my own heli, repair my own heli, import helis, and also sell helis. Now just because I do not have a Heli Instructors rating, must I now accept that I am not capable of making a decision if someone have sufficient skill to acquire his solo rating or not ?, especially if I have an illustrated document that quite clearly show me what is required of the pilot.

Furthermore, due to the lack of Heli instructors, and various other factors, I do not see many solo rated heli pilots in the near future. I can therefore not see why two fixed wing instuctors, who can both fly helicopters quite well, cannot be allowed to do solo ratings at their club. For any further ratings it is obvious one would require a Heli instructor to be present.
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Re: QUESTION TO SAMAA: Solo grading on helis for far away cl

Unread post by Spacey » Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:00 am

Danie,

What would prevent any and all fixed wing instructors to claim same and demand clearance to test heli proficiencies? I mean some guy in Hoedspruit can write in being a fixed wing instructor and claim he's SA's best heli pilot currently, meanwhile back at the ranch the guy can barely hold a hover on the simulator and doesn't know what collective pitch is. If SAMAA granted you permission to go ahead, they would have to do the same with everyone else. The problem doesn't lie with your abilities to do the job and do it well, but how can we be sure if you haven't done any form of heli proficiency yet. If you really are the accomplished pilot you claim, then there shouldn't be a problem for you to quickly obtain a heli instructors rating right?

Regards,
Rudolf du Toit
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Re: QUESTION TO SAMAA: Solo grading on helis for far away cl

Unread post by Spacey » Mon Apr 18, 2011 11:39 am

Grim,

Sorry don't know where your reply went but seems it was deleted whilst I was typing.

Either way, there's no easy answer to your question but I'm sure you knew that before you posted. How hard will it be for you to now simply attain your hover proficiency? It really isn't difficult? So much so I think with a few weeks hard practise on a good simulator it can be attained first day out with the real deal and an instructor helping for just a few flights at most. From there you can hover safely and practise the hovering for the solo to get that to perfection without an instructor at your home field. Then again focus all your effort into learning how to fly on the simulator while hovering at the field. From there again a few quick sessions with an instructor flying the real deal should easily get you to a solo rating. There's really no excuse with simulators like Phoenix being available now, the problem is usually just folks not willing to put in the effort. If then still you struggle to make the solo rating, surely you should ask yourself if maybe it's a good idea to get proper instruction.

I've said it before, when I started out age 12/13 broke and only making 100 bucks each month doing magazine stock takes at the supermarket. I still had to travel 230km's to get to the closest person who could teach me to fly. Only way was to fly on the puter, Microsoft flight simulator 3 and 4 (These were horrid by the way) sitting in the tower wearing out the mouse....
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Re: QUESTION TO SAMAA: Solo grading on helis for far away cl

Unread post by grim » Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:01 pm

Hi guys..
I've got the same problem ,my local club in riversdal in the western cape does have gold level fixed wing instructors but i'm the only heli pilot there.
I also build /setup and maintain my own heli , i've been flying for about two years now and enyoy flying, Recently started training myself in loops and rolls, basic 3d. :D

I know all the SAMAA regs and rules but ,how to train with an instructor if you are the only heli pilot at your club. :?:

Would also like the bennefits of SAMAA insurance ,but should anything happen The Pilot is not covered by insurance as they were not in compliance with SAMAA's requirements for SOLO flight. [-X [-X

To travel 160km everytime to train with an instructor will be costly ,as well as traveling and finding the weather /wind is to bad to fly... :evil: :evil:
Every person in this economy have to turn each cent twice... :!:
What to do...
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Re: QUESTION TO SAMAA: Solo grading on helis for far away cl

Unread post by Spacey » Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:17 pm

grim wrote:Hi guys..
I've got the same problem ,my local club in riversdal in the western cape does have gold level fixed wing instructors but i'm the only heli pilot there.
I also build /setup and maintain my own heli , i've been flying for about two years now and enyoy flying, Recently started training myself in loops and rolls, basic 3d. :D

I know all the SAMAA regs and rules but ,how to train with an instructor if you are the only heli pilot at your club. :?:

Would also like the bennefits of SAMAA insurance ,but should anything happen The Pilot is not covered by insurance as they were not in compliance with SAMAA's requirements for SOLO flight. [-X [-X

To travel 160km everytime to train with an instructor will be costly ,as well as traveling and finding the weather /wind is to bad to fly... :evil: :evil:
Every person in this economy have to turn each cent twice... :!:
What to do...
See my response to your original post above this one. You didn't in the previous one include the bit where you are already working loops and rolls? If that's the case I don't see what it is exactly that is a problem for you, the Solo proficiency test should be a walk in the park for you even without practise, all you need to do is arrange with the instructors you refer to 160km away to quickly test you next weekend their available and you're set.

As far as your cents comments go, if you really are turning cents. Just my personal opinion, maybe another hobby should be considered. If you can afford a heli and to keep one flying. Getting to someone to help to learn to fly it shouldn't be too big of a deal, especially if done hand in hand with a simulator. Flying helicopters and even fixed wing (Here there are cheap ways however) is expensive, period. Please don't try and blow this last paragraph out of proportion for entertainment, I won't be amused. :)
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Re: QUESTION TO SAMAA: Solo grading on helis for far away cl

Unread post by grim » Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:51 pm

Hi Guys.

Thanx for the reply.. :D

Have no problem with solo Requirements. :D

AS for my cents comment : NO need to get personal , only ment traveling can be expensive. :!:

thanx.
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Re: QUESTION TO SAMAA: Solo grading on helis for far away cl

Unread post by All Charged Up » Mon Apr 18, 2011 2:34 pm

Grim:

The guys in George are starting to arrange an SAMAA instructor to get through to George sometimes to do the required Helicopter proficiency testings. =D> =D>

I am sure we can coordinate to combine the proficiency testing at our club venue and by having about 6 or so pilots contributing to travel costs, will make it more affordable for everybody involved. :-k

Would you be interested to be included in this venture? :smt014
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Re: QUESTION TO SAMAA: Solo grading on helis for far away cl

Unread post by grim » Mon Apr 18, 2011 3:04 pm

Hi Guys.

Yes ,interested to be included . :D :D

thanx

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