QUESTION TO SAMAA: Solo grading on helis for far away clubs

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danie.e
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Re: QUESTION TO SAMAA: Solo grading on helis for far away cl

Unread post by danie.e » Mon Apr 18, 2011 6:47 pm

Man, you heli guys are really protecting your holy grail. I have been doing this hobby for over 33 years and NEVER have the thought crossed my mind that a fellow hobbyist would stoop down to the level of a criminal, especially if he/she is a SAMAA appointed instructor, to go so far and lie about his abilities just to test one or two guys with their heli's. Oh, by the way, I never claimed to be an expert heli pilot, I merely stated that I can fly it with my fixed wing colleagues. I do believe that I have enough skill, knowledge and above all HONESTY to make a decision if someone is good enough for his solo rating or not.

I for instance would have no problem if a heli instructor were to test a fixed wing newcomer for his solo rating for the simple reason that one really has to be an idiot not to be able to recognise if someone is in control of his model or not.

Had there been sufficient numbers of heli instructors around, I would not even have considered writing my original post, and I am sure the originator of the thread would also not have considered the thought.

Let me really throw the cat among the pigeions: what makes a heli instructor so special that only he/she is capable of making a decision to grant someone his/her solo grading? Is it because he/she is more intelligent than fixed wing instructors? Is his/her eyesight better? Is it because he/she can do more tricks with his heli than others? Does he/she have superior knowledge on the theory of flight? and so on ad nauseam.

To go back to the beginning, I am sure that the original question arose to find out if there is a feasable way to help fellow heli pilots obtain their solo rating without too much fuss. As I read the original question I never got the impression that he was asking for a FREEBIE. so please heli guys, lets get back to the original question. " Why not? "
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Re: QUESTION TO SAMAA: Solo grading on helis for far away cl

Unread post by clivem » Mon Apr 18, 2011 7:46 pm

Spacey wrote:See my response to your original post above this one. You didn't in the previous one include the bit where you are already working loops and rolls? If that's the case I don't see what it is exactly that is a problem for you, the Solo proficiency test should be a walk in the park for you even without practise, all you need to do is arrange with the instructors you refer to 160km away to quickly test you next weekend their available and you're set.

As far as your cents comments go, if you really are turning cents. Just my personal opinion, maybe another hobby should be considered. If you can afford a heli and to keep one flying. Getting to someone to help to learn to fly it shouldn't be too big of a deal, especially if done hand in hand with a simulator. Flying helicopters and even fixed wing (Here there are cheap ways however) is expensive, period. Please don't try and blow this last paragraph out of proportion for entertainment, I won't be amused. :)
Spacey, sorry but i am going to have to disagree here. you of all should know that simply becuase a guy is attempting loops and rolls he is going to pass the solo so easily (grim plse i have no idea how you fly so this is not aimed at you personally) Hovering is the basics of heli flying and i have seen plenty guys out there thrashing a heli around the sky wildly but they cant control a decent hover or stop and turn when they want. the heli often flys them......... anyone who prescribes that any proficiency test will be passed without practice is in my opnion wrong. thats like saying becuase you are the top heli pilot in SA why bother practicing any sechedules, heck you fly so well you might as well just pitch on the day - i dont think so. these tests are not at all hard but must be practised as they are designed such that the instructor can see your capabilities according to the level you are trying to achieve.
another thing that really gets me is when guys start preaching to others that if you cant afford it naybe you should look for another hobby!!!!!!!! what a great way to promote the hobby [-X [-X [-X there are guys out there who just manage to keep themselves flying and doing what they enjoy - leave them to it!!!!! you yourself say you used to earn R100 at the supermarket, did that stop you flying - NO!
Flying helis does not have to be expensive!!! this is a myth stated by who i dont know - yes it can be expensive!!!! it all depends on how you go about it. I flew (and instructed 12 yrs ago) for one of the top flying schools in the UK for fixed wing. never flew helis but 2 yrs ago decided to do so as another challenge. I taught myself on a HK450, never crashed it once, it is still flying, never so much as changed blades or anything!! I am no-one special - anyone can do it!!! it is just the way and methods you use to go about it.
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Re: QUESTION TO SAMAA: Solo grading on helis for far away cl

Unread post by clivem » Mon Apr 18, 2011 7:47 pm

danie.e wrote:Man, you heli guys are really protecting your holy grail. I have been doing this hobby for over 33 years and NEVER have the thought crossed my mind that a fellow hobbyist would stoop down to the level of a criminal, especially if he/she is a SAMAA appointed instructor, to go so far and lie about his abilities just to test one or two guys with their heli's. Oh, by the way, I never claimed to be an expert heli pilot, I merely stated that I can fly it with my fixed wing colleagues. I do believe that I have enough skill, knowledge and above all HONESTY to make a decision if someone is good enough for his solo rating or not.

I for instance would have no problem if a heli instructor were to test a fixed wing newcomer for his solo rating for the simple reason that one really has to be an idiot not to be able to recognise if someone is in control of his model or not.

Had there been sufficient numbers of heli instructors around, I would not even have considered writing my original post, and I am sure the originator of the thread would also not have considered the thought.

Let me really throw the cat among the pigeions: what makes a heli instructor so special that only he/she is capable of making a decision to grant someone his/her solo grading? Is it because he/she is more intelligent than fixed wing instructors? Is his/her eyesight better? Is it because he/she can do more tricks with his heli than others? Does he/she have superior knowledge on the theory of flight? and so on ad nauseam.

To go back to the beginning, I am sure that the original question arose to find out if there is a feasable way to help fellow heli pilots obtain their solo rating without too much fuss. As I read the original question I never got the impression that he was asking for a FREEBIE. so please heli guys, lets get back to the original question. " Why not? "
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Re: QUESTION TO SAMAA: Solo grading on helis for far away cl

Unread post by clivem » Mon Apr 18, 2011 7:51 pm

another point - why are fixed wing guys given the grandfather clause, and now again it is open again to guys with more than 5yrs experience to simply fill in the form and apply for their fixed wing solo

YET - a heli guy cant do the same thing [-X [-X [-X [-X ( or a jet guy, glider guy and the list goes on....)

I have no objection to proficiencies and actually see them as a good thing, what irks me is the simple requests just to pass solo tests which only allow any pilot to fly at HIS OWN CLUB, being denied.
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Re: QUESTION TO SAMAA: Solo grading on helis for far away cl

Unread post by LionelBrink » Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:27 am

Hi Guys,

There are clearly a number of people who are very passionate about RC helicopters! It is rather ironic that the thread currently appears to be doing more to isolate the people / groups involved, than to provide a collaborative solution.

Cutting to the chase, currently SAMAA requires a student pilot (i.e. pre-SOLO) to be under the instruction of a suitably qualified RC pilot (the "Instructor"). At present this requires RC heli students to be instructed & assessed by an RC Heli Instructor. Unfortunately, there are simply are not enough RC heli instructors at the clubs that can ensure this - which is detrimental to the development of this form of the hobby. To assist, a number of RC heli instructors travel to the clubs to provide guidance and/or assessment in the form of the RC heli proficiency tests, by some form of agreement between the club & the RC Heli Instructor.

A proposal was made that fixed wing instructors be permitted to fulfill the role of heli instructor at remote clubs. Given the level of debate about this I would suggest considerable more clarity is required for this proposal to be considered:

1. Should all current fixed wing instructors automatically qualify to sign-off heli students "Solo"?
2. What are the criteria to identify which fixed-wing instructors are permitted to sign-off a heli student solo test - is it distance from a major centre as measured on an recognised map, or is the years experience of the instructor, etc.
3. Is there any expectation that the instructor needs to give the student guidelines/advice on the flying RC heli's?
4. Will a RC heli student be willing to accept "instruction" from someone who may never have flown an RC helicopter?
5. Will club committee/members permit unskilled individuals to instruct at their field?
6. Should the RC heli "practice" be separated from RC heli "testing" - i.e. can a fixed wing instructor observe as per SAMAA guidelines, but not sign off the test (or vice versa)?
7. Taking all safety & insurance aspects into account, what should be changed within the SAMAA guidelines to address the "under instruction" requirement?
8. What would be required for SAMAA to consider a retrospective qualification for RC heli pilots as per the RC fixed-wing?

This is not an attempt to dismiss this proposal - l0n3i200n has identified a issue that affects SAMAA members & the continued development of the RC helicopter discipline & has proposed a potential solution. I suggest that we need to change tact in this thread & try to unemotionally construct a proposal that all stakeholders will accept.

Regards,
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Re: QUESTION TO SAMAA: Solo grading on helis for far away cl

Unread post by LionelBrink » Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:41 am

clivem wrote:another point - why are fixed wing guys given the grandfather clause, and now again it is open again to guys with more than 5yrs experience to simply fill in the form and apply for their fixed wing solo

YET - a heli guy cant do the same thing [-X [-X [-X [-X ( or a jet guy, glider guy and the list goes on....)

I have no objection to proficiencies and actually see them as a good thing, what irks me is the simple requests just to pass solo tests which only allow any pilot to fly at HIS OWN CLUB, being denied.
Hi Clive,

I cannot comment on the specific requirements of all the aeromodelling discplines, but I do know that proficiency ratings are generally grounded in balancing safety & progressive skills acquisition. For RC gliders, the MGA has a retrospective (grandfather) Solo approach and also recognises "cross skill" equivalence that enables proficient SAMAA members to fly select RC gliders "at their club" within existing safety requirements - please refer to the MGA website at http://mgasa.blogspot.com/2010/12/mga-g ... ating.html for more details.

Regards,
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Re: QUESTION TO SAMAA: Solo grading on helis for far away cl

Unread post by clivem » Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:14 am

Lionel

thanks for that - i stand corrected then about gliders - well done to the glider SIG for being proactive =D> =D> =D> I have read the site you link to and it does make sense.
Maybe someone else can enlighten us about other sigs?

I particularly like the table on the blog site which allows for higher rated guys to test for any rating lower. this makes very good sense and if applied to the heli side we could get a lot further quickly in helping with Heli solo ratings. =D> =D> =D>

I really think where this comes from is that there will always be a small % of us who want to compete in comps and travel all over to fly with others. However there is a big % of guys that just want to fly at their local clubs, have fun, but still be covered by insurance.
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Re: QUESTION TO SAMAA: Solo grading on helis for far away cl

Unread post by l0n3i200n » Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:27 am

LionelBrink wrote: 1. Should all current fixed wing instructors automatically qualify to sign-off heli students "Solo"?
2. What are the criteria to identify which fixed-wing instructors are permitted to sign-off a heli student solo test - is it distance from a major centre as measured on an recognised map, or is the years experience of the instructor, etc.
3. Is there any expectation that the instructor needs to give the student guidelines/advice on the flying RC heli's?
4. Will a RC heli student be willing to accept "instruction" from someone who may never have flown an RC helicopter?
5. Will club committee/members permit unskilled individuals to instruct at their field?
6. Should the RC heli "practice" be separated from RC heli "testing" - i.e. can a fixed wing instructor observe as per SAMAA guidelines, but not sign off the test (or vice versa)?
7. Taking all safety & insurance aspects into account, what should be changed within the SAMAA guidelines to address the "under instruction" requirement?
8. What would be required for SAMAA to consider a retrospective qualification for RC heli pilots as per the RC fixed-wing?

This is not an attempt to dismiss this proposal - l0n3i200n has identified a issue that affects SAMAA members & the continued development of the RC helicopter discipline & has proposed a potential solution. I suggest that we need to change tact in this thread & try to unemotionally construct a proposal that all stakeholders will accept.

Regards,
Lionel
1. My opinion is that the fw instructors should give consent, and be "approved" and appointed by the club.
2. The heli proficiency guidelines should be used. Basically if you can recognize dangerous and uncontrolled operation of a model. Basic common sense. Your the man for the job.
3. No expectation - student's choice, if fw have some heli experience - it's still better than nothing.
4. Student's choice. Either try ur solo with the opportunity or leave the solo and fly unrated & uninsured.
5. Would probably depend if SAMAA allow the request or not + would differ from club to club. (does club allow non rated pilots to fly????)
6. Possibly - it would allow a non rated pilot to practice under some good principles and some experienced rc modellers. Club rules, SAMAA rules, basic control related tips. However it will still not solve the lack of proficiency testers.
7. Higher proficiencies can grant lower then current proficiency. Meaning a Solo rated pilot can assist / grant a pilot trying to obtain Hover. Advanced rating can assist or grant a Solo. Instructor can grant both -all below.
8. Why not make it the same as the current fixed wing Grandfather clause? Or is heli pilots superior to FW?

I have drafted a proposal to SAMAA regarding this, and it came form Wikus Hatting (club president BRV) directed to SAMAA. Till date we had no suggestions nor reply's from SAMAA. I believe from your last post on RCHQ, that you and the SAMAA chairs had a meeting on the 14th and this would be an item on the agenda. Any outcome related to this thread from the meeting?

I can mail you a copy if you like + the comments from the club's FW instructors. Those who gave consent and those that did not.
Our original mail had these conditions - basically answers some of the questions you had above.
extract from original proposal to SAMAA wrote: "Based on the above scenario we would request SAMAA to grant special permission to any two BRV SAMAA qualified fixed wing instructor/ instructor judges to allow granting of helicopter hover/solo proficiencies till such time that a registered club member can obtain a helicopter advanced proficiency or higher to allow the club to continue as per SAMAA laid down procedure for helicopter proficiency grants based on the following criteria:

1. Two BRV SAMAA qualified fixed wing instructor / instructor judges may grant a helicopter hover/solo based on the laid out procedures of the SAMAA helicopter proficiency document (SHPD). http://www.samaa.org.za/pdf/heli_prof_2007.pdf
2. Special permission grant is for a limited time – till such time that a registered member qualifies for a helicopter advanced or higher proficiency to allow normal SAMAA helicopter proficiency grant procedures.
3. A qualified solo helicopter pilot is present to help the fixed wing instructors to check and gauge safe operation of the helicopter.
4. All SAMAA safety and club safety rules are applied as per normal."

Point 3 can not apply to all clubs since it might not have qualified solo rated pilots, in our case we do - it will help assisting the FW instructors.
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Re: QUESTION TO SAMAA: Solo grading on helis for far away cl

Unread post by Spacey » Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:58 am

danie.e wrote:Man, you heli guys are really protecting your holy grail. I have been doing this hobby for over 33 years and NEVER have the thought crossed my mind that a fellow hobbyist would stoop down to the level of a criminal, especially if he/she is a SAMAA appointed instructor, to go so far and lie about his abilities just to test one or two guys with their heli's. Oh, by the way, I never claimed to be an expert heli pilot, I merely stated that I can fly it with my fixed wing colleagues. I do believe that I have enough skill, knowledge and above all HONESTY to make a decision if someone is good enough for his solo rating or not.

I for instance would have no problem if a heli instructor were to test a fixed wing newcomer for his solo rating for the simple reason that one really has to be an idiot not to be able to recognise if someone is in control of his model or not.

Had there been sufficient numbers of heli instructors around, I would not even have considered writing my original post, and I am sure the originator of the thread would also not have considered the thought.

Let me really throw the cat among the pigeions: what makes a heli instructor so special that only he/she is capable of making a decision to grant someone his/her solo grading? Is it because he/she is more intelligent than fixed wing instructors? Is his/her eyesight better? Is it because he/she can do more tricks with his heli than others? Does he/she have superior knowledge on the theory of flight? and so on ad nauseam.

To go back to the beginning, I am sure that the original question arose to find out if there is a feasable way to help fellow heli pilots obtain their solo rating without too much fuss. As I read the original question I never got the impression that he was asking for a FREEBIE. so please heli guys, lets get back to the original question. " Why not? "
Protecting the holy grail? Wow you really got it all figured out don't you, sounds like you know me personally very well. You really think by now with all the weekends I've given up helping others get their proficiency and get flying to begin with (Add the last three to the count btw) that I wouldn't like to see these things being offered for sale at the corner cafe you are mistaken, but it can't. Please, you are going about this emotionally and not objective, if that's how this discussion is going to be approached please excuse me from it. That just simply would not be constructive. You will be suprised to learn what people would do for their friends when politics and emotions come to play, to just throw a comment out that "nobody would stoop so low", that's naive. I also never said you claimed to be an expert pilot, please take the time to actually read my response. I also never questioned your own ability specifically, I'm sure you have everything needed to be a heli instructor right now! BUT, if you are given the go ahead to do just that you need to be realistic and know that SAMAA would need to do same without question for every single other fixed wing instructor out there.

The other portion of your response with the whole cat thing honestly scares me a bit. You stated you are a fixed wing instructor but still you ask those questions? Please take a moment to just consider what it is you are saying, please! The core problem still remains that when in case of an accident, we would still need to prove that it was well and truly just that..an accident. What makes a heli instructor so "special" as you put it? Would a fixed wing instructor, no matter how proficienct at flying aeroplanes, have the ability to during the solo test step up and grab the radio in case of a problem? Say the pitch servo on the student's heli fails during the test on his eCCPM heli, will someone who has never flown a heli have the ability to grab the radio or even shout out the right instructions to best avoid a serious accident like a .90 sized heli flying into the student? We're talking about dangerous machinery here, I'm sure you won't argue that with me would you? Does your average fixed wing instructor have the ability to grab the tx in the event of a freak storm wind swooping in and blowing the heli over the clubhouse with moms and kids all around, does he/she have the ability to then in those winds pilot the heli to a safe place to land/dump it? Isn't that the whole point of having a more experienced pilot assist in training someone?

How will the average fixed wing instructor verify well and truly that a person has the ability to setup his own heli and do a well enough pre-flight on it? Does the fixed wing guy know and have the experience to even know most helis well enough to check that everything is going in the right directions? Nevermind at a glance spot that the student's washout base has unhooked itself during binding and the student standing there shaking like a rattle snake due to the pressure of the test doesn't notice this? Can the fixed wing instructor in such a case save that heli and the people it would head off to?!?! Ask the original poster about this..I didn't just pull this out my arse!! :x I can go and on about the freaky things I've seen, nevermind during training even just during testing. People in frantic hurries fixing machines to make it to the test, not even noticing their gyro isn't mounted anymore, or that his tail is working the wrong way around now that he's changed the tail servo. You are asking that fixed wing instructors, who some doesn't even have an insterest in helis nevermind enough experience, that they go about all this safely.

If you even had a heli solo proficiency, I would have been right along side you going to the MHSA chair requesting you be granted a club instructors rating to help others, even test the along side another heli instructor for solo. But right now, there's nothing on paper to prove that you have a good understanding of helis? Before you worry again, again I am not questioning your ability, but put yourself in the shoes of people that don't know you at all and now has to make this decision and have this discussion with you.

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Re: QUESTION TO SAMAA: Solo grading on helis for far away cl

Unread post by Spacey » Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:33 am

clivem wrote:
Spacey wrote:See my response to your original post above this one. You didn't in the previous one include the bit where you are already working loops and rolls? If that's the case I don't see what it is exactly that is a problem for you, the Solo proficiency test should be a walk in the park for you even without practise, all you need to do is arrange with the instructors you refer to 160km away to quickly test you next weekend their available and you're set.

As far as your cents comments go, if you really are turning cents. Just my personal opinion, maybe another hobby should be considered. If you can afford a heli and to keep one flying. Getting to someone to help to learn to fly it shouldn't be too big of a deal, especially if done hand in hand with a simulator. Flying helicopters and even fixed wing (Here there are cheap ways however) is expensive, period. Please don't try and blow this last paragraph out of proportion for entertainment, I won't be amused. :)
Spacey, sorry but i am going to have to disagree here. you of all should know that simply becuase a guy is attempting loops and rolls he is going to pass the solo so easily (grim plse i have no idea how you fly so this is not aimed at you personally) Hovering is the basics of heli flying and i have seen plenty guys out there thrashing a heli around the sky wildly but they cant control a decent hover or stop and turn when they want. the heli often flys them......... anyone who prescribes that any proficiency test will be passed without practice is in my opnion wrong. thats like saying becuase you are the top heli pilot in SA why bother practicing any sechedules, heck you fly so well you might as well just pitch on the day - i dont think so. these tests are not at all hard but must be practised as they are designed such that the instructor can see your capabilities according to the level you are trying to achieve.
another thing that really gets me is when guys start preaching to others that if you cant afford it naybe you should look for another hobby!!!!!!!! what a great way to promote the hobby [-X [-X [-X there are guys out there who just manage to keep themselves flying and doing what they enjoy - leave them to it!!!!! you yourself say you used to earn R100 at the supermarket, did that stop you flying - NO!
Flying helis does not have to be expensive!!! this is a myth stated by who i dont know - yes it can be expensive!!!! it all depends on how you go about it. I flew (and instructed 12 yrs ago) for one of the top flying schools in the UK for fixed wing. never flew helis but 2 yrs ago decided to do so as another challenge. I taught myself on a HK450, never crashed it once, it is still flying, never so much as changed blades or anything!! I am no-one special - anyone can do it!!! it is just the way and methods you use to go about it.
Clive, if someone is doing loops and rolls. You'd think by now they have some sort of control over the machine to have the confidence to move that step up? To even get to a place where any heli pilot will even consider trying their first loops and rolls, they would have to have some decent amount of control. If that's not the case, then again do you not agree that this person needs help in the form of an experienced pilot before they hurt themselves or others. That said, you want to hazard a guess how many heli pilots we've sent solo who didn't even bother to read the proficiency documents, who can't even loop or roll properly yet and admit it? You'll laugh, but pretty much 95% of the guys showing up for the test is guilty of this, still they've been flying long enough to have enough control to pass a solo test. We're not trying to win competitions when doing the solo test remember? Purely making sure the pilot is safe, and in control enough. So yes, my comments stand that you can very easily obtain a solo without practise, and if it's done right I think you should be able to pass it without practise to be honest. Otherwise you need to still be under instruction. Think about it.

As for the rest, didn't I ask nicely that it not be blown out of proportion? That's dissapointing Clive, coming from you. :? It's the old story, a guy buys an 8grand model with all the bells and whistles then turns around and says "You know, I'm in a bit of a bind so I can't pay club fees now". A guy complains each day how he's struggeling to make ends meet in the current climate, can't feed his kids properly, yet he owns a Blackberry torch connected to all the bling that comes with it? A friend complains he can't pay his medical aid this month, but his DSTV is still going strong. If a guy is flying his lama at home, in tough times, I don't have a problem at all. You'd think though that if someone buys a little 450 or bigger, the place he buys it from would educate this person on the dangers of it and that further instruction could be required before they can safely operate the craft on their own at the local flying field? I know this is a different scenario but bare with me.

You cannot argue that everyone can learn to fly a heli without there being costs at all? I also learned on a .90 without incident, heck even flew my first F3C competition before any incident. Soon after though I had a tail blade failure (Back in the day of the bad batch of NHP tailblades), cost a fortune, happened again in fact before we put 2 and 2 together and found the problem. Helis cost money, you know this, only the very lucky few get away without it. In closing on this matter, you are essentially asking a guy flying whatever it may be 450 to GSR gasser be allowed to just carry on on his own at the field far away because he is doign what he loves possibly endangering others just because he cannot afford to get to an instructor? I'm sorry but no, promoting the hobby at the cost of other's safety? I just don't agree, lets leave it at that now please.
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Re: QUESTION TO SAMAA: Solo grading on helis for far away cl

Unread post by Spacey » Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:47 am

LionelBrink wrote:Hi Guys,

There are clearly a number of people who are very passionate about RC helicopters! It is rather ironic that the thread currently appears to be doing more to isolate the people / groups involved, than to provide a collaborative solution.

Cutting to the chase, currently SAMAA requires a student pilot (i.e. pre-SOLO) to be under the instruction of a suitably qualified RC pilot (the "Instructor"). At present this requires RC heli students to be instructed & assessed by an RC Heli Instructor. Unfortunately, there are simply are not enough RC heli instructors at the clubs that can ensure this - which is detrimental to the development of this form of the hobby. To assist, a number of RC heli instructors travel to the clubs to provide guidance and/or assessment in the form of the RC heli proficiency tests, by some form of agreement between the club & the RC Heli Instructor.

A proposal was made that fixed wing instructors be permitted to fulfill the role of heli instructor at remote clubs. Given the level of debate about this I would suggest considerable more clarity is required for this proposal to be considered:

1. Should all current fixed wing instructors automatically qualify to sign-off heli students "Solo"?
2. What are the criteria to identify which fixed-wing instructors are permitted to sign-off a heli student solo test - is it distance from a major centre as measured on an recognised map, or is the years experience of the instructor, etc.
3. Is there any expectation that the instructor needs to give the student guidelines/advice on the flying RC heli's?
4. Will a RC heli student be willing to accept "instruction" from someone who may never have flown an RC helicopter?
5. Will club committee/members permit unskilled individuals to instruct at their field?
6. Should the RC heli "practice" be separated from RC heli "testing" - i.e. can a fixed wing instructor observe as per SAMAA guidelines, but not sign off the test (or vice versa)?
7. Taking all safety & insurance aspects into account, what should be changed within the SAMAA guidelines to address the "under instruction" requirement?
8. What would be required for SAMAA to consider a retrospective qualification for RC heli pilots as per the RC fixed-wing?

This is not an attempt to dismiss this proposal - l0n3i200n has identified a issue that affects SAMAA members & the continued development of the RC helicopter discipline & has proposed a potential solution. I suggest that we need to change tact in this thread & try to unemotionally construct a proposal that all stakeholders will accept.

Regards,
Lionel
Hi Lionel,

It has been discussed before somewhat between me and Johan and personally (I think Johan will agree) I don't have a problem for instance taking someone who has a fixed wing Gold/Instructors who definitely has knowledge of training and how to go about it, along with all the needed safety knowledge, if such a person just obtains a heli solo then grant them club instructor status for far away clubs to help students get flying and even test them heli solo along with a qualified heli instructor. At least having this person's heli solo black on white will put weight on the fact that this person had experience enough to fly and get a heli flying safely. This person would also have some experience to know how to stay away from difficult and problem scenarios, and possibly enough skill to get out of them safely. Still you need someone that can actually help a student, fly safely. To just have someone that can test? I don't see that as a viable solution.

Regards,
Rudolf
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Re: QUESTION TO SAMAA: Solo grading on helis for far away cl

Unread post by l0n3i200n » Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:54 am

Spacey wrote: Nevermind at a glance spot that the student's washout base has unhooked itself during binding and the student standing there shaking like a rattle snake due to the pressure of the test doesn't notice this? Can the fixed wing instructor in such a case save that heli and the people it would head off to?!?! Ask the original poster about this..I didn't just pull this out my arse!! :x

Rudolf du Toit
That would be confirmed as it was me (l0n3i200n) - washout accidentally hooked out while carrying the heli to the pad. Luckily it was noticed. Would have been a seriously short Solo test =D> =D> =D>
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Re: QUESTION TO SAMAA: Solo grading on helis for far away cl

Unread post by LionelBrink » Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:54 am

[quote="l0n3i200n
...
I have drafted a proposal to SAMAA regarding this, and it came form Wikus Hatting (club president BRV) directed to SAMAA. Till date we had no suggestions nor reply's from SAMAA. I believe from your last post on RCHQ, that you and the SAMAA chairs had a meeting on the 14th and this would be an item on the agenda. Any outcome related to this thread from the meeting?

I can mail you a copy if you like + the comments from the club's FW instructors. Those who gave consent and those that did not.
Our original mail had these conditions - basically answers some of the questions you had above.
...
[/quote]

Hi,

Unfortunately due to various commercial responsibilities the SIG Chairs were unable to meet on 14 April & the meeting was rescheduled for 19 April - but the Heli reps are unavailable this evening, so the discussion will be extended online.

Please email me the copy for this purpose.

Thanks
Last edited by LionelBrink on Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: QUESTION TO SAMAA: Solo grading on helis for far away cl

Unread post by LionelBrink » Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:02 pm

[quote="Spacey
...

It has been discussed before somewhat between me and Johan and personally (I think Johan will agree) I don't have a problem for instance taking someone who has a fixed wing Gold/Instructors who definitely has knowledge of training and how to go about it, along with all the needed safety knowledge, if such a person just obtains a heli solo then grant them club instructor status for far away clubs to help students get flying and even test them heli solo along with a qualified heli instructor. At least having this person's heli solo black on white will put weight on the fact that this person had experience enough to fly and get a heli flying safely. This person would also have some experience to know how to stay away from difficult and problem scenarios, and possibly enough skill to get out of them safely. Still you need someone that can actually help a student, fly safely. To just have someone that can test? I don't see that as a viable solution.

Regards,
Rudolf[/quote]

Hi Rudolf,

Very good point - this would create a "club heli instructor" to provide the basis for a club to permit onsite heli "practice" for students wishing to become proficient & extends the reach of instructors to the clubs. From my own practical experience (SCUBA Training Director for almost 5 years), I also believe that there should be segregation between the individual(s) who trained the student, and the instructor who assesses (i.e. signs-off) the proficiency. What are your experiences / thoughts regarding RC heli wrt this aspect?

Regards
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Re: QUESTION TO SAMAA: Solo grading on helis for far away cl

Unread post by Spacey » Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:04 pm

l0n3i200n: Just in general. In the heli system from my understanding it works the same as fixed wing rankings. A heli instructor along with a gold rated heli pilot can test up to heli gold. Same goes for all of them, from my knowledge for instance a Heli solo along with a Heli instructor can also test solo's. Of course all of these scenarios would mean another heli instructor was not available.

Now for discussing the solution in general:

I don't see how involving anyone fixed wing is really the answer here. The rules state that anyone with a Gold rating in helis can do heli instruction (Simply because this is really the hardest rating to obtain, and the person will have the ability to auto and recover from any attitude). Also a gold rated pilot can alongside an instructor even get other gold pilots going in the same club, how hard can it be to get one instructor right? That said, to move up to instructor from gold really is not a big step, just simply requires this pilot to get a good system of instruction in place, and a already have a decent knowledge about helicopters. The physical flying side of things, honestly is no harder than the gold test.

The real solution here is quite simply for everyone to stop complaining and trying to find other ways, instead of investing time into actually getting a rating and getting it over and done with. Also, to this day still, I only know of two people who has done the little extra effort to actually do anything more than a solo test...of ALL the people we've tested by now? Don't everyone agree herein lies the problem? If everyone just stood up and made the effort to actually get their more advanced ratings, we wouldn't be faced with this problem we have now. Even in the instructors rating we don't expect the pilot to even get into the top 3 at the next nationals as far as doing the manuevers well is concerned. It's not out of reach...

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