QUESTION TO SAMAA: Solo grading on helis for far away clubs

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Re: QUESTION TO SAMAA: Solo grading on helis for far away cl

Unread post by Spacey » Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:15 pm

LionelBrink wrote:
Hi Rudolf,

Very good point - this would create a "club heli instructor" to provide the basis for a club to permit onsite heli "practice" for students wishing to become proficient & extends the reach of instructors to the clubs. From my own practical experience (SCUBA Training Director for almost 5 years), I also believe that there should be segregation between the individual(s) who trained the student, and the instructor who assesses (i.e. signs-off) the proficiency. What are your experiences / thoughts regarding RC heli wrt this aspect?

Regards
Hi Lionel,

I agree with you, that is very much the ideal situation. Problem however is with things going the way they are now, maybe this is one thing to suggest we "bend temporarily" untill it is something that can be done with reasonable effort. It could well never happen but to enforce it now I do not think would help us. We do stick to it at RAM but we have the luxury of three instructors on hand every weekend. [-o< I would hate to though tie someone's hands and prevent them from giving advice/instruction to a student purely so they would be able to do a proficiency test later? It's something reasonably easy to do in Gaunteng with all the heli instructors around, but abroad is another story. So yea, as long as at least one person is not actively involved with the student I'm happy. After all, in the heli world most of us are friends in some way or other, the fraternity is just that small in SA.
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Re: QUESTION TO SAMAA: Solo grading on helis for far away cl

Unread post by l0n3i200n » Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:21 pm

Spacey wrote:
Hi Lionel,

It has been discussed before somewhat between me and Johan and personally (I think Johan will agree) I don't have a problem for instance taking someone who has a fixed wing Gold/Instructors who definitely has knowledge of training and how to go about it, along with all the needed safety knowledge, if such a person just obtains a heli solo then grant them club instructor status for far away clubs to help students get flying and even test them heli solo along with a qualified heli instructor. At least having this person's heli solo black on white will put weight on the fact that this person had experience enough to fly and get a heli flying safely. This person would also have some experience to know how to stay away from difficult and problem scenarios, and possibly enough skill to get out of them safely. Still you need someone that can actually help a student, fly safely. To just have someone that can test? I don't see that as a viable solution.

Regards,
Rudolf
The post have become somewhat personal, which was never my intentions. I only wanted to be able to invite a fellow friend/heli pilot to our club to grow the heli part of the club and have fun while doing it. Our club rules are based on SAMAA rules. "No proficiency - no fly, or have a instructor next to you".

Now we are originally a FW exclusive club - so no one could fly a heli if pure club rules where followed. Which I thought was a bit unfair, since I did the trouble to pay my SAMAA, can safely handle and setup a heli ( now it's not competition stuff I'm talking about ), never the less. I was not allowed to fly unless I exempt the club, members from any incident as I was now not SAMAA covered eventhough I did the trouble of joining SAMAA and went to an approved SAMAA club. WHY fhave SAMAA then and why pay club fees? I feel that is SAMAA propose these rules, each one should have the right to practice/ participate and be tested @ his or her club convenient to both parties. If the basic requirement can not be met, SAMAA should either change the rule, or make a plan to allow the achievement to satisfy the rule. Driving another 50Km to train/practice or even get tested was in my opinion not a fair solution - in my case it all worked out in the end, but what if financial constraints or other constraints not allow the extra 50km? Still today I don't think this is fair, but that's just my opinion.

Spacey -personally helped me a lot, even reviewed shaky phoenix recordings for pre-solo testing. Help with good advice and setup to get my phoenix sim sessions up to a level where I would ACTUALLY pass a solo.( TRUST ME A NOTICEABLE diff now if you compare the 2 sessions). I also agree and understand from where Spacey is coming from since he has been there and done the necessary to get where he is at. I think we all understand and agree that these things aren't toyz and can seriously harm someone. I therefore would also think that Spacey have made a valuable suggestion towards this thread. We don't want to just be given solo's we need to actually be able to do them - my concern was the lack of the opportunity not the process. Even bigger concern was the because of lack of opportunity I was at risk - I had no insurance (SAMAA) even though I paid(SAMAA) and did the necessary (join a SAMAA club) to try and do the right thing.

Lionell - Please would you take up Spacey's suggestion as part of my original proposal to SAMAA?
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Re: QUESTION TO SAMAA: Solo grading on helis for far away cl

Unread post by clivem » Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:12 pm

Spacey wrote: In closing on this matter, you are essentially asking a guy flying whatever it may be 450 to GSR gasser be allowed to just carry on on his own at the field far away because he is doign what he loves possibly endangering others just because he cannot afford to get to an instructor? I'm sorry but no, promoting the hobby at the cost of other's safety? I just don't agree, lets leave it at that now please.
spacey, sorry dont have time to read everything and respond right now, but plerase dont get me wrong, I am not wanting guys to be able to just do their own things at their own clubs, i am looking for a way to empower someone local / within clubs to be able to assist getting the proficiencies going. More later......
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Re: QUESTION TO SAMAA: Solo grading on helis for far away cl

Unread post by danie.e » Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:00 pm

Proposal:

Two SAMAA FW Instructors that fly helis themselves be allowed to do hover and solo tests for lets say, maximum one year - SAMAA to verify from the various clubs that these instructors can actually fly helis.

Lets keep it simple without fuss. The intention is to grow the base of solo pilots so that they can also enjoy insurance cover. The more guys you have one one level the more guys will gravitate to the next.

I am sure that in a couple of months existing heli instructors will have their hands full with requests for advanced training.

(Oh, by the way, lucky you caught the slipped link - now tell me how you gonna spot the battery that maybe has one and a half minute of life in it???? - come on lets not become ridiculous with all the zillions of ifs and buts.)
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Re: QUESTION TO SAMAA: Solo grading on helis for far away cl

Unread post by Spacey » Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:22 pm

danie.e wrote:Proposal:
(Oh, by the way, lucky you caught the slipped link - now tell me how you gonna spot the battery that maybe has one and a half minute of life in it???? - come on lets not become ridiculous with all the zillions of ifs and buts.)
WHOA?!? You test it with a proper load applying battery checker, that's how! You really don't check any of your batteries before you fly, each time? On top of that you make sure you use proper high quality batteries, and that you change them out once a year. You also cycle them occasionally and make sure you know what to look out for to spot a battery that's about to go. They really don't just quit and give up, I've lost a heli due to a battery before but only one cell gave up in flight. Problem is it struggled to charge before, and I didn't heed the warnings. However still it didn't just give up, it got gradually too flat to keep control and I picked up on this which enabled me to dump it right where it was before things got out of hand. Just last year I had to land a giant scale plane out in the veld, in this case a geniune battery failure from a dud A123, difference is I didn't try and bring it home to the runway close to the crowds. No, experience ensured I dumped it right where it was out in the veld, about 300 people bared witness to this btw.

Luck on the washout? No, experience....earned the hard way! When last you fly a heli that rolls when you pull up..it's kinda fun. Not so much when it's your R40k competition machine though. :D And in case you're wondering, I still landed it.

I hear you on the ifs and buts, but you're still overlooking the fact that some form of experience is required to make the right decision quickly and to ensure we do everything we possibly can to avoid it. There's no alternative.
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Re: QUESTION TO SAMAA: Solo grading on helis for far away cl

Unread post by danie.e » Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:52 pm

The battery thing by the way, no battery tester will save your craft it is going to pop. please stop looking at the negatives and come up with a positive workable solution.

There is not enough heli instructors at present. What has been suggested is really not such a difficult or bad thing to achieve. At present there are large numbers of heli pilots out their flying in their backyards, school rugby fields, parking lots etc. Let us stop chasing guys away and bring them into the fold. Nobody wants to take away your thunder as a heli instructor and I am sure you are going to make a lot of very good heli pilots for many years to come.

Lets look at the proposal again and make something that can work from it.

Please guys, remember those who are heli instructors, where did you get your ratings from?
or put it another way, where did the first heli instructor come from? wasn't he/she self taught?
the same applies for many other heli pilots.

The original suggestion has lots and lots of merit. Once again, stop protecting the grail. In a short period of time there will be a sufficient pool of guys that will uphold all you are fighting for. So what if a few guys got their ratings from a "NON HELI INSTRUCTOR" goodness lets start somewhere.

Final request, all readers. please do not read ANYTHING as personal in what I write on this forum. If I wish to be personal, I will arrange a face to face meeting for that purpose.
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Re: QUESTION TO SAMAA: Solo grading on helis for far away cl

Unread post by Spacey » Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:18 pm

Take away my thunder you say? That's enough thank you, I'm out.
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Re: QUESTION TO SAMAA: Solo grading on helis for far away cl

Unread post by clivem » Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:50 pm

spacey

dont leave us now :D :D :D and dont take anything here personally - you have done a lot for the heli side of things incl proficiencies =D> =D> =D>
i do see something positive coming out of this...................

I agree the more we can get guys on the lower rungs, the more guys there will be that will want to move up.....

Let me just lay out our situation and we can discuss that hopefully for the benefit of other clubs
We have 2 FW instructor rated also whom have have Heli Solo - we also have 2 members though that are Heli Advanced rated but no fixed wing ratings. is this not a situation where we could be considered competent enough just to get guys heli hover and solo rated? using one fiwxed wing instr with heli solo plus one advanced Heli rated pilot. Till now its been NO, but i see you guys have discussed it ???????? if you dont want to discuss it here feel free to pm me.

cheers
clive
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Re: QUESTION TO SAMAA: Solo grading on helis for far away cl

Unread post by danie.e » Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:24 pm

Spacey, I agree with Clive, don't opt out now. Clive, where I am we have 2 FW Instructors who can fly helis but only one guy on solo and one on "silver" (apparently some previous form of rating.) So we are worse off than you.

My proposal does not give the FW Instructor any Heli instructor status, it merely suggests that they are allowed to test current heli pilots at their clubs, according to the rules laid down to see if they are competent enough to fly their craft and make a decision accordingly. If a FW Instructor cannot, or do not fly his own heli, it is obvious he would be excluded from this temporary testing measure. Pilots also to be clearly informed that any further advancement will purely be in the hands of existing heli instructors.

Again, once we have a fair base of solo heli pilots, I am sure that our current pool of instructors are going to have a lot of work ahead.
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Re: QUESTION TO SAMAA: Solo grading on helis for far away cl

Unread post by l0n3i200n » Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:29 am

clivem wrote:spacey

dont leave us now :D :D :D and dont take anything here personally - you have done a lot for the heli side of things incl proficiencies =D> =D> =D>
i do see something positive coming out of this...................

I agree the more we can get guys on the lower rungs, the more guys there will be that will want to move up.....

Let me just lay out our situation and we can discuss that hopefully for the benefit of other clubs
We have 2 FW instructor rated also whom have have Heli Solo - we also have 2 members though that are Heli Advanced rated but no fixed wing ratings. is this not a situation where we could be considered competent enough just to get guys heli hover and solo rated? using one fiwxed wing instr with heli solo plus one advanced Heli rated pilot. Till now its been NO, but i see you guys have discussed it ???????? if you dont want to discuss it here feel free to pm me.

cheers
clive
CliveM as far as I'm aware heli advanced pilots can be a pointed as club instructors and grant solo's if 2 is available. Provided that the pilot's testers aren't the students main instructors.
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Re: QUESTION TO SAMAA: Solo grading on helis for far away cl

Unread post by l0n3i200n » Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:30 am

danie.e wrote:Spacey, I agree with Clive, don't opt out now. Clive, where I am we have 2 FW Instructors who can fly helis but only one guy on solo and one on "silver" (apparently some previous form of rating.) So we are worse off than you.

My proposal does not give the FW Instructor any Heli instructor status, it merely suggests that they are allowed to test current heli pilots at their clubs, according to the rules laid down to see if they are competent enough to fly their craft and make a decision accordingly. If a FW Instructor cannot, or do not fly his own heli, it is obvious he would be excluded from this temporary testing measure. Pilots also to be clearly informed that any further advancement will purely be in the hands of existing heli instructors.

Again, once we have a fair base of solo heli pilots, I am sure that our current pool of instructors are going to have a lot of work ahead.
BTW Silver = Solo.
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Re: QUESTION TO SAMAA: Solo grading on helis for far away cl

Unread post by LionelBrink » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:36 am

Hi guys,

I believe Rudolf has left this list. The level of insults against individuals is out of control on this list & frankly I am somewhat surprised that anyone who has given so much of their own time to assist & make representation could endure it for so long.

Unfortunately this is a great loss for us all as Rudolf (Spacey) is probably the most knowledgeable RC heli instructors in SA & has real world experience that a fixed wing instructor cannot never hope to emulate.

Disgusted.
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Re: QUESTION TO SAMAA: Solo grading on helis for far away cl

Unread post by LionelBrink » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:42 am

Hi,

The SIG Chairs met last night to discuss options to assist with proficiencies. At this time a proposal has been made that distinguishes between the pre-Solo assistance or "standby" whilst learning to fly and the test assessment or sign-off. Specific proficiencies were proposed that could be used as alternates in exceptional circumstances & fully motivated by a club committee. The SIG Chairs have until the end of May 2011 to review this proposal & we will provide feeback after that.

As it stands now, when preparing for a Solo, a student MUST be accompanied by a more experienced pilot in the same discipline (i.e. model type). Only a heli instructor may sign off a heli students assessment/test.

Regards,
Lionel
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Re: QUESTION TO SAMAA: Solo grading on helis for far away cl

Unread post by l0n3i200n » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:51 am

LionelBrink wrote:Hi,

The SIG Chairs met last night to discuss options to assist with proficiencies. At this time a proposal has been made that distinguishes between the pre-Solo assistance or "standby" whilst learning to fly and the test assessment or sign-off. Specific proficiencies were proposed that could be used as alternates in exceptional circumstances & fully motivated by a club committee. The SIG Chairs have until the end of May 2011 to review this proposal & we will provide feeback after that.

As it stands now, when preparing for a Solo, a student MUST be accompanied by a more experienced pilot in the same discipline (i.e. model type). Only a heli instructor may sign off a heli students assessment/test.

Regards,
Lionel
Lionell
Thanks for taking it up with the chairs. I think we should get moderators to lock this thread for now. As I think it has achieved what it should. At least the powers that be, now know it's a problems and are busy addressing the problem. And would hopefully come up with a workable solution. We can post the results of the outcome after the end of May on a new post. I'm sure SAMAA would actual also publish it in the news letter.

Again thanks to all who contributed.
Happy flying
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