Non ICASA approved radios

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Klaas
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Re: Non ICASA approved radios

Unread post by Klaas » Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:11 pm

Die woorde "the so called insurer" sê nogal baie van wat bedoel word, is dit nie?

As 'n persoon op 'n openbare pad ry en die kar se lisensie is nie op datum nie sal die versekering ook nie uitbetaal nie. Totdat iemand die wet verander wat dan toelaat dat mens met 'n ongelisensieerde kar op die pad mag ry sal dit onwettig wees, of die kar dan andersins padwaardig is of nie. Wat is die verskil?

Aan die een kant word hard gepraat dat Burgerlugvaart strenger moet optree en USA se FAA se pad volg, maar as dit kom by radios wat net so belangrik is vir veiligheid dan is almal skielik daarteen. Hoe die hele ICASA ding hanteer word lyk wel of dit 'n probleem is, maar moenie SAMAA of die versekering daarvoor blameer nie.

Feit is, daar is versekering en as jou kant skoon is, dan sal dit uitbetaal.

Ek hou by wat ek gesê het.
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Re: Non ICASA approved radios

Unread post by Gary Lees » Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:01 pm

All I hear about is if you do not have this or that, the insurance will not pay.
I have top quality equipment, maybe not a sticker though, but it has been legal all along. Now, suddenly you tell me I do not have a license. Ok so tomorrow they tell you all cars on the road must have 6 wheels, what then? Yes, pathetic answer, the same as a sticker will make you radio work better!
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Re: Non ICASA approved radios

Unread post by Klaas » Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:08 pm

Daar is geen inligting wat ou toerusting ongeldig en onwettig verklaar nie. Nêrens het ICASA gesê jy mag nie meer jou ou radio gebruik nie. Die nuwe reëls handel oor nuwe toerusting wat nou aangekoop word, plaaslik of ingevoer.
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Re: Non ICASA approved radios

Unread post by clivem » Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:10 pm

this was the case in 2010 - so far as i know it never changed- so you can import your own, so long as it complies and is for PERSONAL use and not re-sale so far as i know ----- therefore you wont have an icasa sticker


this from the samaa blog
Of importance to our members, is that during a recent meeting between ICASA and the South African Revenue Services it was decided that, individuals may import five of an item at one time or one of an item five times per year without needing to obtain or produce type approval for 2.4 GHz radio control equipment used exclusively for models provided they conform with ICASA's 100 milliwatt and 20-dBm gain specification.

Anyone importing more than five of a item at one time or during the year must apply for type approval at a cost of R4,000 per set. Type approval stickers are available from ICASA to distributors who have type approval certificates.
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Re: Non ICASA approved radios

Unread post by garethbarry » Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:25 pm

Clive, I wish it were that simple. Indeed, I feel that many have been misled by the exact statement that you have quoted. If you read Lionel's statements at the start of this thread, you will find that we are in fact perhaps not covered. Rather, the "5 personal stes as long as its 100mW or less" only means that ICASA wont come banging on your door. long before buying my radio, I spoke to members at my club and they all thought it was a great radio and great idea. I would think that their advice would be different if they knew of these issues. I just really hope we get clarity soon, as you can see, people are getting edgy.
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Re: Non ICASA approved radios

Unread post by Gary Lees » Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:10 am

Ok so now the more we probe the better the information becomes. I am happy that my current equipment will not become unacceptable and I will remain covered by the insurance. That is all I wanted to find out.

Please let us stop this speculation and fear mongering that this thread has thrown out and please SAMAA tell us the facts as they are today and where we are going with this.

It is this type of thing and the proficiency thing that is going to drive people away from SAMAA and the clubs to the park flyers where they just fly on any piece of land they find. The more this happens, the weaker SAMAA and the clubs will become and this will destroy this wonderful hobby that I have had the privilege to be part of since 1966 and currently share with my son.
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Re: Non ICASA approved radios

Unread post by danie.e » Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:51 am

On the one hand a lot has been written and statements made that SAMAA insurance will only pay if ICASA equipment is used and on the other hand there is clarity that individuals may import LEGALLY without having to have ICASA type approval

The question still remains: Will SAMAA Insurance pay in case of an accident if a modeller used a "NON" Icasa approved radio or NOT ? - no-one seems to be able to answer this question.

As long as this question remains unanswered, people will be edgy and speculation will be rife.

At this point in time, my guess is that the SAMAA insurance company in all probability will hide behind the "type approval" issue NOT to pay claims if an accident occur with a "NON Approved" radio. I am also of the opinion that there is a large number of SAMAA members that feel the same. It would be in SAMAA's own interest to clarify this matter with its members, as this has now been dragging on for a very long time, and people are putting themselves and others at risk on a daily basis without knowing if they are covered or not.
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Re: Non ICASA approved radios

Unread post by garethbarry » Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:58 am

Gary
Not trying to spread fear, just trying to get to the bottom of this issue; since if it is (as I believe it is) a real issue, I feel that it is important that people are actually aware of this. Quoting Lionel earlier in the thread;

"SAMAA approached ICASA on this issue more than 3 years ago. ICASA verbally admitted that they cannot control the influx of imports & as such request that local retailers/distributors are required to "type approve" the products they import for commercial purposes. Part of the statement made to SAMAA included the point that an individual importing less than 4/5 sets a year, for personal use, are not going to be followed up by ICASA for type approval. So ICASA will unlikely prosecute individuals with these sets - even if they went to the effort of trying to identify them. As sole regulator of radio spectrum in SA, this is obviously an area of concern for SAMAA & as pointed out in your message above, a number of aeromodellers too.

In the event of an incident, SAMAA requests specific information about the Tx / RX & SAMAA have clearly stated that the onus rests on the user to ensure that this set is type approved by ICASA, as the Insurer (NOT SAMAA) is very clear about only covering accidents where the sets that are ICASA type approved! This does not prevent the individual from using the set, but the risk of not being covered by insurance must be considered by the RC pilot. Verifying legal compliance is is considered a standard practice in the insurance industry - anyone who has been involved in an accident will attest that the first thing the assessor looks at is the cars' license disk & amount of tyre wear - even if your vehicle was parked/stationary at the time of the accident!"
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Re: Non ICASA approved radios

Unread post by Gary Lees » Tue Aug 12, 2014 11:23 am

Gareth,
If the case is that the insurer will only cover type approved equipment, what happens to those of us who have equipment bought before this ruling was brought about and the others who have imported legally according to the 5 or less for personal use. We were covered before, or so we thought, are no longer covered because of a change of ruling.
What then is the point of remaining a SAMAA member, other than if you want to take part in competitions. Are they going to check that you have type approved equipment at the competitions where SAMMA membership is required? Must the clubs now chase people away because they do not have this approval and therefore will not be allowed at a SAMAA approved club. The club, if they allow anyone to fly without this approval will be liable for allowing non-approved equipment.
This whole thing is a mess without the proper information and clarity on how we move forward with it. I believe this opens up a whole can of worms and is going to become a major headache for SAMAA and the insurer. Remember the insurer has changed the scope of cover without notification to the insured, by taking this approval thing into account.

Now, while this debate rages on, I see no one from SAMAA has interjected giving factual information. Are they also in the dark about this? We need clarification, or this thing will kill the hobby.
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Re: Non ICASA approved radios

Unread post by garethbarry » Tue Aug 12, 2014 12:19 pm

Hi Gary
If I have understood Klaas correctly, as well as reading the relevant documentation, my understanding is that this really only pertains to those who have bought equipment since the new 'type approval' laws came into effect, thus many with older sets are exempt from this whole issue. But please I could be wrong!!!
I agree it is a mess and we really need to hear exactly from SAMAA where we now stand with the insurer. In my opinion, much of the confusion comes from the '5 sets/personal use/100mW' Icasa 'exemption' that came from SAMAA which many took to be a complete OK to go ahead and import such equipment, which is in some conflict with Lionel's remarks quoted above, when considering the insurance aspect.
In response to some of Klaas's comments above, I must say that in the absence of a definitive answer from SAMAA, people are going to be frustrated and (in my opinion) can be forgiven for questioning the insurance as a whole. Perhaps the incident that he sites that was written up in the SAMAA news was deliberately included to allay fears regarding insurance, but here I must concur 100% with Danie-was it a 'type approved' radio? etc etc. Also, and I mean no disrespect Klaas, but you have to admit that the law regarding driving legally is 100% clear, whilst this issue is about as clear as mud. If I go to a hobby shop, they will sell me a radio and I am sure will tell me that I must then pay SAMAA subscription, join a club if I want to do it 'the right way" and be legal. I am however not convinced that the radio they sell me will be type approved! So we can say "the Law is the law and you must obey it like it or not" but what exactly is that law? Hence I am sympathetic with all of the frustrated comments.
Gary, I agree, it is going to drive more and more people toward 'park flying' as I myself am considering!! For a newcomer, I can tell you that this whole experience has been rather disheartening and would put off many a less passionate 'newby.'
On the whole, the exact terms of the insurance are a bit of a mystery (to me at least but maybe I just can't read/or am a bit thick!!) For example, how do ratings come into the equation? All of this has made me look more and more at trying to get some sort of personal comprehensive liability cover. I am signing off on this thread now, as I don't want to get any more knickers in a knot, which it seems I have done.
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Re: Non ICASA approved radios

Unread post by danie.e » Tue Aug 12, 2014 2:51 pm

On a personal note, I am sick and tired of the SAMAA insurance policy issue. It has been dragging on for years and I yet have to see a copy of this so called Insurance policy, its inclusions and exclusions.

Each and every SAMAA member has the right to know EXACTLY to what extent he/she is covered.

IF what I have read here so far is true, ONLY PEOPLE that fly with ICASA approved radio's have insurance cover and NO ONE ELSE and therefore as a "NON type approved" radio owner, see no reason why Insurance cover payment is included in my annual subs as I am NOT COVERED.

As SAMAA is the authority that negotiated the insurance on its members behalf, the onus is on SAMAA to clear this matter up. It helps no-one to drag this issue along for an undetermined period of time.
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Re: Non ICASA approved radios

Unread post by Gary Lees » Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:16 pm

I totally agree with you Danie.

PLEASE someone at SAMAA give us the clarification!!!!
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Re: Non ICASA approved radios

Unread post by danie.e » Wed Aug 13, 2014 9:52 am

Thanks to Klaas !!! - he sent me a copy of the SAMAA Insurance policy. 17 Pages of legal mumbu jumbo that will probably give some legal junky an erection.

I have done a quick scan through the document and so far have seen no mention made of ICASA type approved radios. There is a lot of reference to doing things "right" (basically meaning that if the insured does not take reasonable care to ensure the safety of others and their equipment, they could refuse a claim) So please do NOT accept that by not mentioning type approved equipment they will pay if non approved equipment is used. This issue STILL NEED TO BE CLARIFIED.

The "penalty" payments in respect of claims can be quite hefty so just that alone is a deterrent to ensure your equipment is in top notch condition so as to avoid accidents.

What is of note is that the maximum cover is R15million, and the annual premium is Roughly R75,000.00 which means that with "4000" members, your contribution is less than R20.00 per annum. This is not bad BUT, if you have NON approved equipment and the verdict is that they will only pay if you use APPROVED equipment, then your annual subs should be reduced by that amount as you will then not be covered.

I suggest SAMAA place the Insurance document on the SAMAA website for all members to see for themselves what it is all about.
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Re: Non ICASA approved radios

Unread post by In The Haze » Wed Aug 13, 2014 10:51 am

For what it's worth, and I have been told face to face that SAMAA does not monitor Avcom or any social media medium, even if it has been indicated/mentioned/posted to the contrary.

No post here will trigger a reaction, only personal/club/organisational communication to the relevant SAMAA officials direct, should.

I am just saying..................
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Re: Non ICASA approved radios

Unread post by Klaas » Wed Aug 13, 2014 6:15 pm

Ek het voorheen gevra dat die versekering polis op die SAMAA webtuiste geplaas word, maar daar is een of ander wetsregtelike beperking wat verhoed dat dit daar geplaas mag word. Dit mag ook nie op ‘n openbare forum geplaas word nie. Die polis is wel vir elke lid wat daarvoor vra beskikbaar en sal aan hom per e-pos gestuur word. Ek het dit met vorige jare gevra en ontvang. Die inhoud van die vorige is dieselfde as hierdie nuutste een, net die datums het verander. Ek het dit gister by Bob aangevra en in minder as 50 minute van hom ontvang. =D> ..... Wie vra sal ontvang. ...... :wink:

Met die groep polis kan ongelukkig nie korting gegee word vir lede wat nie versekering wil hê nie, die totale bedrag bly dieselfde en ander sal dan jou gedeelte moet dra. Ek het verlede jaar se polis ook hier en die bedrag is presies dieselfde, ongeag aantal lede wat verander het. As jy lid is van SAMAA is jy deel van die polis, dit is jou verantwoordelikheid om aan die vereistes te voldoen.
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