Onex ($20K homebuild Aerobatic)

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Re: Onex ($20K homebuild Aerobatic)

Unread post by Samba Flyer » Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:39 pm

Hmmm yuch

I think your observation that they are overcommitted to getting kits out the door when they havent finalised everything yet is accurate. So if you lose a few customers because you cant see thru flexability then so what.
The SA forex issues are not easily understood by foreign companies - especially if they dont want to!

The backing of a kit company is as you say an important ingredient when selecting a kit to build. Vans has got it right and so have a few others!

So how do we scratch the itch for something like a Onex. I have seen a few others but the VNE (aircraft light and small) or the kit completeness are way behind Onex (or not even comparible to Vans).
http://www.thatchercx4.com/index.html
http://www.air-sports-aircrafts.com/
http://www.skyleader.aero/en/products/s ... erview.ep/
and the way out
http://www.d-plane.eu/
and my personal favorite as far as layout goes but not in production:
http://www.angelfire.com/ks2/janowski/j5.html

I think we need to plant an idea of a single seat in the minds of the Sling factory locally. I have already begun sowing the seeds ie every time I have past the Sling factory I tell them I want to leave a Onex kit in the corner and see if it will grow local legs!

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Re: Onex ($20K homebuild Aerobatic)

Unread post by angelwingsthesecond » Fri Jun 24, 2011 6:02 pm

Hey Rudi,

It was interesting even listening to the SONEX AeroVee Turbo webinar on Wednesday. John Monett said they have so much going on at the moment and list things... What was interesting is he even mentioned they have other ONEX prototypes in testing. I still think that SONEX is a great aircraft. I think that you not being able to get your kit YET may be a Godsend although having to pay school fees.... BUT agree wholeheartedly that service and after sales service is what makes a great product. Vans is doing great in that regard.

Wish the situation were different. Was looking forward to that build thread.

Jason.
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Re: Onex ($20K homebuild Aerobatic)

Unread post by RudiGreyling » Fri Jun 24, 2011 6:43 pm

Sorry guys, I was also looking forward to an Onex Build thread.

I always try to do the righteous thing, and if life gives you an unexpected smack, then I believe there is a reason for it. Take the warning.

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Re: Onex ($20K homebuild Aerobatic)

Unread post by RudiGreyling » Fri Jun 24, 2011 6:49 pm

Interesting that you say that Monett said they are very busy on the Turbo web conference last night too. Interesting news about more Onex Prototypes. Wonder why? The CEO also said in his email response this week to us they are very busy, and that he does not know they will document the Onex for approval by CAA. So we could have ended up with a finished airplane and not able to fly it, since Sonex has not passed the documentation to CAA yet. It all starts to fall into place now...
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Re: Onex ($20K homebuild Aerobatic)

Unread post by ADB » Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:35 pm

Maybe it doesn't mean much in the big picture, but I wonder if Sonex realises what this has cost them? There was such a hype around the Onex, which would have rubbed off on other Sonex models, and its just gone quiet.

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Re: Onex ($20K homebuild Aerobatic)

Unread post by Peter L » Fri Jul 15, 2011 2:49 pm

ADB wrote:Maybe it doesn't mean much in the big picture, but I wonder if Sonex realises what this has cost them? There was such a hype around the Onex, which would have rubbed off on other Sonex models, and its just gone quiet.

Andrew
Hi Andrew,

It is difficult to judge what the cost will be to Sonex, but from my perspective they will not see one cent from me - regardless of their product or changes to payment policies. :evil:
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Re: Onex ($20K homebuild Aerobatic)

Unread post by RudiGreyling » Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:59 pm

Peter L wrote:
ADB wrote:Maybe it doesn't mean much in the big picture, but I wonder if Sonex realises what this has cost them? There was such a hype around the Onex, which would have rubbed off on other Sonex models, and its just gone quiet.

Andrew
Hi Andrew,

It is difficult to judge what the cost will be to Sonex, but from my perspective they will not see one cent from me - regardless of their product or changes to payment policies. :evil:
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Re: Onex ($20K homebuild Aerobatic)

Unread post by sp00ky » Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:37 am

Hi Rudi,
I was also excited about the Onex until I read your post detailing reasons for your cancellation. I contacted Sonex to get more clarity and they actually agree that your post is totally accurate EXCEPT for the omission of the fact that they tried to accomodate the special requirements necessary for the wire transfer and that this would have meant that your delivery date would have been delayed slightly and that you then found this unacceptable.

You are clearly not a sh*t causer and and add huge value with your build progress posts and I am thus surprised and disappointed that you could'nt find common ground with Sonex.

I was aso looking forward to your Onex build progress posts! :(
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Re: Onex ($20K homebuild Aerobatic)

Unread post by RudiGreyling » Fri Jul 29, 2011 8:23 am

sp00ky wrote:Hi Rudi,
I was also excited about the Onex until I read your post detailing reasons for your cancellation. I contacted Sonex to get more clarity and they actually agree that your post is totally accurate EXCEPT for the omission of the fact that they tried to accomodate the special requirements necessary for the wire transfer and that this would have meant that your delivery date would have been delayed slightly and that you then found this unacceptable.

You are clearly not a sh*t causer and and add huge value with your build progress posts and I am thus surprised and disappointed that you could'nt find common ground with Sonex.

I was aso looking forward to your Onex build progress posts! :(
Spooky, that is not true and they never suggested that, my partner can vouch for that. Peter please jump in here. I think Sonex is trying to do damage control now, and making suggestions like this to other customers makes me even more mad!
If a company operates like this, then good riddens!
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Re: Onex ($20K homebuild Aerobatic)

Unread post by Peter L » Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:47 am

Sonex could not guarantee us that we would receive our paid for goods within the time stipulated by the SA Reserve Bank - this from their CEO. This would mean that as importers we would be subject to penalties as we would be in clear contravention of South Africa's Exchange Control Regulations. Providing us with a pro forma invoice does not mean our goods will arrive within the SARB stipulated time. At no time did Sonex suggest that we delay our order but they did inform us that they themselves were behind schedule on a number of issues – adding more pressure to the time period allowed by the SARB.

Credit card payments to Sonex would have solved every payment problem, to both parties, and ensured that the purchase went ahead.

From Sonex's side: They refused point blank to accept any further credit card payments, with their reason being that merchant fees paid to the Credit Card companies eat into their margins. They would not budge an 1/8 of an inch on this condition.

From our side: We offered to 1) pay Sonex's portion of the merchants fees to their credit card companies (in essence, they bill us for the fees they would have to pay their merchants) 2) We offered to pay for the complete kit, by credit card, way in advance of it being shipped.

The result: Sonex have full payment way in advance of any wire transfer type payment & Sonex have no additional expense of merchant fees, as we have covered them. On our side, we eliminate the SARB imposed time constraint associated with paying for imported goods via a wire transfer as well as any chance of us falling foul of our Exchange Control regulations.

This is clearly a win - win situation for both parties isn't it?

My estimate for the merchant fees on our outstanding balance is $420. Rudi & I were more than willing to cover this amount, but Sonex would not budge.

So make your own minds up ... For no Dollar loss to Sonex, they loose at least 1 order & 2 customers.

Was it worth it?
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Re: Onex ($20K homebuild Aerobatic)

Unread post by sp00ky » Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:50 am

Thanks for clearing this up. Jeremy Monnett, in his response, stated that you were simply not prepared to lose your place. Even IF that were the case why didn't they just take up your offer? Bend the rules slightly, sale done, case closed! If it were me I'd have taken the sale. Makes no sense at all!

They clearly make a good product (with a loyal following in the US) but are killing it with crap beaureacracy.

In my query to them I explained how popular AVCOM is and that VANS has the market pretty sorted so the ball is in their court.

Seems VANS will keep their market share.
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Re: Onex ($20K homebuild Aerobatic)

Unread post by Peter L » Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:58 am

:evil: :evil: :evil: OUR PLACE IN THE QUEUE WAS NEVER AN ISSUE :evil: :evil: :evil:
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Re: Onex ($20K homebuild Aerobatic)

Unread post by RudiGreyling » Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:05 pm

sp00ky wrote:Thanks for clearing this up. Jeremy Monnett, in his response, stated that you were simply not prepared to lose your place. Even IF that were the case why didn't they just take up your offer? Bend the rules slightly, sale done, case closed! If it were me I'd have taken the sale. Makes no sense at all!

They clearly make a good product (with a loyal following in the US) but are killing it with crap beaureacracy.

In my query to them I explained how popular AVCOM is and that VANS has the market pretty sorted so the ball is in their court.

Seems VANS will keep their market share.
Spooky, NOT TRUE, it never came up! Suggesting that now after the fact makes me very suspicious. Someone is not telling the truth! You can decide...

On paper and marketing side they have a good product, hence I was drawn to it, but after the client satisfication problems and inflexibility I am glad we are out of it.

PS: Whats your skin in the game in any case?
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Re: Onex ($20K homebuild Aerobatic)

Unread post by sp00ky » Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:45 pm

Doesn't matter...... At the end of the day you gave them a way of effecting payment and they refused - this is fact (they admit it). Penalising you for cancelling thus seems very harsh.

Fact is I was looking at the Onex because of the price (low exposure) and ease of build. The Onex just got my attention although I've never even considered a single seater as an option before. I'm no longer interested but then I wasn't a guaranteed customer anyway.

Case closed.

PS. ordered RV 10 kit ! :D (What I always really wanted anyway - after 6 years of umming and ahing)
Last edited by sp00ky on Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Onex ($20K homebuild Aerobatic)

Unread post by RudiGreyling » Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:14 pm

I thought I put this issue to bed, but low and behold email correspondence last week Thursday from Jeremy CEO from Sonex while I was at EAA Wings Park. It seems more than one customer is asking questions, he refers to customers walking up to their stall at Oshkosh. He is now back peddaling creating untruths around the issue to make them look good and me look bad.

I wanted to quote what he said, but decided against it, cause he has that legal slurp on the bottom of his emails that it can only be used by the addressee.

In short he accuses me of not taking up a offer at the time as eluded to above, that was never there, and accuses me of not having the funds, an insult to me. Then to top it off he now offers to work with us to order a Onex.

I decided I will only post my final response.
Rudi wrote:Jeremy, (CC Peter Lonie my build partner)

The bad publicity your company is getting is due to your own actions and rightfully so.

To make matters worse you invented 2 additional lies to try and salvage the situation:
1) By your own admittance, what I wrote on the South African Blog was correct, but you said I left out an important detail where you offered alternate payment dates and you said I declined it because I would lose my space in the queue. This is a lie and these offers and my decline was never done. You could not provide any proof of this offer or my decline when I challenged you about it, twice! So either you are lying or somebody at your company is lying to you.

2) You make out if we (Me and my partner) do not have the funds to pay for the kit. If you remember we offered to pay for the full kit way in advance of the shipping date via credit card to ensure the monies cleared and on top of it we offered to pay your credit card fees. The South African fraternity knows I own both a RV7 and RV10 valued at +/- $250,000 so not paying for a Onex @ $25,000 a tenth of the value is a laughable suggestion.

No Thank you, we will not be taking your offer to re-order a Onex. You have proven your company cannot be trusted with basic ethical values like the truth. So I do not want to subject myself to any future business dealings with such a company.

Luckily in the South African fraternity I managed to build an honest credibility so your lies affect little in my life, but it creates bad press for your own company. I am sure the South African Building fraternity would like to read about the latest installment.
Regards
Rudi
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