Aerobatics Formation Question

Discussions on Aerobatics and Sport flying.

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
pcb
Take off Clearance
Posts: 148
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:28 am
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Aerobatics Formation Question

Unread post by pcb » Fri Aug 28, 2015 11:30 am

At every air show mention is made by the commentator of the critical role the team leader plays during a formation manoeuvre such a the barrel roll. It's all about follow the leader. Do aerobatic teams have "protocols" (some standard form of communication) in place in the event of the leader suffering a blackout during the manoeuvre to prevent the wingmen following the leader into the ground? Would they know when to "knock it off" so to speak?
User avatar
paulw
Fower Tousand
Fower Tousand
Posts: 4501
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2011 3:48 pm
Closest Airfield: Galway Airport
Location: Galway
Has liked: 37 times
Been liked: 32 times

Re: Aerobatics Formation Question

Unread post by paulw » Fri Aug 28, 2015 11:42 am

There was such a case in USA where a whole team I think Blue Angels or Thunderbirds flew straight into the ground as every one was following the leader.

Maybe Wildcat_003 can answer that one?
.
Don't believe what I post, research what I post....
They have a book on how to take my money away? When did this happen......
User avatar
jurik
Steep Turn Right
Posts: 290
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 11:59 pm
Location: Krugersdorp
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Aerobatics Formation Question

Unread post by jurik » Fri Aug 28, 2015 11:53 am

Also in SA:

On 26 May 1971 a formation of three military aircraft, flying by sight along the N2 highway, banked to the right three seconds to late, narrowly missed the University and Rhodes Memorial and ploughed into the side of the mountain. For many years a radar reflector beacon stood on Plumpudding Hill above Rhodes Memorial to prevent similar incidents.
Juri Keyter
User avatar
Deanw
Six Tousand
Six Tousand
Posts: 6545
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 1:37 pm
Closest Airfield: FACT
Has liked: 10 times
Been liked: 105 times

Re: Aerobatics Formation Question

Unread post by Deanw » Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:11 pm

The SAAF Mercurius accident, albeit flying in formation, was more about not seeing the mountian in low cloud than blindly following the leader. The third aircraft had initiated a pull-up at the last moment, but too late.

See http://www.saairforce.co.za/forum/viewt ... f=2&t=6244
How come every time my ship comes in I'm at the airport?

http://www.SAairforce.co.za
User avatar
Snitch
Niner Tousand
Niner Tousand
Posts: 9975
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 11:34 am
Closest Airfield: Unknown
Location: Milky Way Galaxy
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 2 times

Re: Aerobatics Formation Question

Unread post by Snitch » Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:26 pm

paulw wrote:There was such a case in USA where a whole team I think Blue Angels or Thunderbirds flew straight into the ground as every one was following the leader.

Thunderbirds in 1982
The 1982 Diamond Crash was the worst operational accident to befall the U.S. Air Force Thunderbirds Air Demonstration Team involving show aircraft. Four Northrop T-38 Talon jets crashed during operational training on 18 January 1982, killing all four pilots.
, the Air Force concluded that the crash was due to a jammed stabilizer on the lead jet. The other pilots, in accordance with their training, did not break formation
User avatar
Mot
Incipient Spin
Posts: 358
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 10:29 pm
Location: FASH
Has liked: 3 times
Been liked: 0

Re: Aerobatics Formation Question

Unread post by Mot » Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:13 pm

Not sure if the Boss called the "Knock Off", but he stepped down after this incident.
Allot of respect for the Blue Angels.

https://youtu.be/dlUWQlXQB20

http://archive.marinecorpstimes.com/art ... ow-flyover

M
Rooi Willie se persoonlik seun
User avatar
jimdavis
10000 and still climbing
10000 and still climbing
Posts: 16087
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:46 am
Closest Airfield: FAGG
Location: Wilderness
Has liked: 381 times
Been liked: 446 times

Re: Aerobatics Formation Question

Unread post by jimdavis » Fri Aug 28, 2015 3:48 pm

Mot wrote:Not sure if the Boss called the "Knock Off", but he stepped down after this incident
It was one of those ridiculous outdated concepts known as "Taking Responsibility". It hasn't been practiced in SA for 20 years :shock: :lol: :lol:

Jim
"PPL Manual"
"Flight Tests"
"So Others May Live"
"Flying in Africa" Vol 1
"Flying in Africa" Vol 2
Look inside these books, or buy them at: www.jimdavis.co.za.
User avatar
paulw
Fower Tousand
Fower Tousand
Posts: 4501
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2011 3:48 pm
Closest Airfield: Galway Airport
Location: Galway
Has liked: 37 times
Been liked: 32 times

Re: Aerobatics Formation Question

Unread post by paulw » Fri Aug 28, 2015 3:56 pm

jimdavis wrote:
Mot wrote:Not sure if the Boss called the "Knock Off", but he stepped down after this incident
It was one of those ridiculous outdated concepts known as "Taking Responsibility". It hasn't been practiced in SA for 20 years :shock: :lol: :lol:

Jim
:lol: :lol: :lol:
.
Don't believe what I post, research what I post....
They have a book on how to take my money away? When did this happen......
User avatar
ERNIE
Taxiing to Clubhouse
Posts: 429
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:22 pm
Closest Airfield: Virginia FAVG
Location: Durban North
Has liked: 42 times
Been liked: 3 times

Re: Aerobatics Formation Question

Unread post by ERNIE » Wed Apr 06, 2016 10:06 pm

pcb wrote:At every air show mention is made by the commentator of the critical role the team leader plays during a formation manoeuvre such a the barrel roll. It's all about follow the leader. Do aerobatic teams have "protocols" (some standard form of communication) in place in the event of the leader suffering a blackout during the manoeuvre to prevent the wingmen following the leader into the ground? Would they know when to "knock it off" so to speak?
The team leader sets the tone for the whole show/sequence. The show or sequence is set out, briefed and practiced in advance so when you see it, it is usually perfect. Hand signals or radio commands are given in advance of any deviation in direction or anticipated height change, or start of a new manoeuvre . Entry into and completion of the manoeuvre is done very gently and with even g-force throughout unless there is a reason to change and this again will be advised by the leader before he initiates the change. The wingmen have complete trust in their leader and each other, so concentrate on their position keeping concentrating on the aircraft that they are formating on.

Even with this concentration, peripheral vision will alert you to anything that is unusual, so if the leader should suffer some form of blackout and suddenly change his flightpath, each wingman will be aware of the problem and if necessary break formation to obviate collision with each other or the ground.
If the wings are travelling faster than the fuselage, it has to be a Helicopter and therefor unsafe. ....Fixed wing Pilot.

It is generally inadvisable to eject directly over the area you have just bombed. ...USAF Manual

Return to “Aerobatics & Sport Flying”