WHY SAA MUST GO

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HJK 414
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Re: WHY SAA MUST GO

Unread post by HJK 414 » Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:58 pm

Jack Welles wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:44 pm

Unless we get nailed by fake news, of course.
You mean like the US data ....... :lol: :lol: ... :wink:

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Re: WHY SAA MUST GO

Unread post by Jack Welles » Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:10 pm

HJK 414 wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:58 pm
Jack Welles wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:44 pm
Unless we get nailed by fake news, of course.
You mean like the US data ....... :lol: :lol: ... :wink: JK
Silly billy -

Quote "The share of reported income earned by the top 1 percent of taxpayers rose slightly to 20.7 percent in 2015. Their share of federal individual income taxes fell slightly, to 39.0 percent."

https://taxfoundation.org/summary-feder ... data-2017/

Look before you leap is a jolly handy maxim ...
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Re: WHY SAA MUST GO

Unread post by HJK 414 » Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:40 pm

Jack Welles wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:10 pm
HJK 414 wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:58 pm
Jack Welles wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:44 pm
Unless we get nailed by fake news, of course.
You mean like the US data ....... :lol: :lol: ... :wink: JK
Silly billy -

Quote "The share of reported income earned by the top 1 percent of taxpayers rose slightly to 20.7 percent in 2015. Their share of federal individual income taxes fell slightly, to 39.0 percent."

https://taxfoundation.org/summary-feder ... data-2017/

Look before you leap is a jolly handy maxim ...


Councillor - I was not looking for a further argument .....
I will stop playing as well.......

It is a moot point - believe it or not - we are just about at the same side of the fence - it is just the urgency level that is seemingly differently interpreted . ....... You were up North as well in the same time as us - you know what the consequences can be if this does not get addressed - soon as.


JK
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Re: WHY SAA MUST GO

Unread post by Jack Welles » Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:47 pm

JK,

The whole point of my posting those various stat snippets was to show that stats are deceptive when posted without context or comparative data. No more and no less. To start nitpicking on the details of the stats themselves is truly a meaningless and, indeed, pointless exercise.

I'm really out of this element of the debate about SAA now, no matter how obliquely you may continue to refer to tiny elements of my posts relating to the relevant conversation.
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Re: WHY SAA MUST GO

Unread post by MadMacs » Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:06 pm

HJK 414 wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:36 am
Cage

My bad - I should have stated - Personal income tax .
Yet the fact remains that a very small taxpayer's base cough up the majority of the Income tax - and with capital leaving and a lot of trouble in the Industrial base of SA - all is not well.

JK
In other words the majority are poor or low income earners who don't have to pay income tax, something everyone conveniently forgets.
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Re: WHY SAA MUST GO

Unread post by expatdoc » Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:08 pm

Moderators Message:
Please read the T&Cs, political discussions are not allowed. [-X
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Re: WHY SAA MUST GO

Unread post by expatdoc » Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:04 pm

expatdoc wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:08 pm
Moderators Message:
Please read the T&Cs, political discussions are not allowed. [-X
Sorry..my bad. 8-[
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Re: WHY SAA MUST GO

Unread post by HJK 414 » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:21 pm

Jack Welles wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:47 pm
JK,

The whole point of my posting those various stat snippets was to show that stats are deceptive when posted without context or comparative data. No more and no less. To start nitpicking on the details of the stats themselves is truly a meaningless and, indeed, pointless exercise.

I'm really out of this element of the debate about SAA now, no matter how obliquely you may continue to refer to tiny elements of my posts relating to the relevant conversation.

Eddie,

Sometimes these "debates" sort of derail.
Nothing personal ...... [-(
I am simply of the opinion that 20 Billion Rand would also pay 130 odd thousand workers a wage of around 150.000 Rand for at least a year, or 65.000 workers the same for 2 years - and that the country would be better served with that amount of people being offered a job - and some semblance of a future - against keeping the airline - in it's sad state - flying ....for the happy few.

There are a lot of well educated young people out there - frantically trying to get ahead .....

The rest is all semantics in my view.

JK
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Re: WHY SAA MUST GO

Unread post by evanb » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:30 pm

Jack Welles wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:10 pm
Quote "The share of reported income earned by the top 1 percent of taxpayers rose slightly to 20.7 percent in 2015. Their share of federal individual income taxes fell slightly, to 39.0 percent."

https://taxfoundation.org/summary-feder ... data-2017/

Look before you leap is a jolly handy maxim ...
Keep in mind that these data are a slight misrepresentation since federal income tax excludes social security contributions and state income taxes. The Tax Foundation consistently exclude them since using federal income tax only makes it look like the rich pay a much higher share of taxes than they actually do. It suits their advocacy message.
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Re: WHY SAA MUST GO

Unread post by danie.e » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:34 pm

Gary,

We do not NEED SAA but we do need ESKOM - so rather make some effort to sort out its mess instead of trying to save a dead horse
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Re: WHY SAA MUST GO

Unread post by Jack Welles » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:37 pm

HJK 414 wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:21 pm
Sometimes these "debates" sort of derail. Nothing personal ...... [-(
I am simply of the opinion that 20 Billion Rand would also pay 130 odd thousand workers a wage of around 150.000 Rand for at least a year, or 65.000 workers the same for 2 years - and that the country would be better served with that amount of people being offered a job - and some semblance of a future - against keeping the airline - in it's sad state - flying ....for the happy few.JK
R20 billion represents the guarantees the govt has put up for SAA loans, not cash. Not sure (ie, I am open to correction) but this year they actually paid out R5 billion to cover maturing SAA loans. Any improvement in, for example, rating agency ratings and the next lot to mature might very well be rolled over again.

And I reiterate that represents +-0,5% of the annual budget. Not good but not as bad as looking at the bare figures without context.

AIUI there's so much more involved than just the money (unpleasant as that reality is): fiscal, socio-economic and political, local and international. Not ideal but it's realpolitik ...

But it seems that this is one down to opinions as to whether it's worth it or not. And I respect the opinions that differ from mine when based on rational economic considerations (like yours above) and not based on emotional/political grounds, which are often more anti-govt rants than arguments meant to persuade.
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Re: WHY SAA MUST GO

Unread post by Jack Welles » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:48 pm

evanb wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:30 pm
Jack Welles wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:10 pm
Quote "The share of reported income earned by the top 1 percent of taxpayers rose slightly to 20.7 percent in 2015. Their share of federal individual income taxes fell slightly, to 39.0 percent."
https://taxfoundation.org/summary-feder ... data-2017/
Look before you leap is a jolly handy maxim ...
Keep in mind that these data are a slight misrepresentation since federal income tax excludes social security contributions and state income taxes. The Tax Foundation consistently exclude them since using federal income tax only makes it look like the rich pay a much higher share of taxes than they actually do. It suits their advocacy message.
Fair enough, but please note that I deliberately quoted only the ones I did out of context in order to point up that stats can be deceptive if not used in context and/or with appropriate comparative figures. The actual numbers themselves were irrelevant to the point being made.

In fact, that you are able to establish that they were misleading proves the very point I was trying to make. So saying 3% of SA taxpayers pay 80% of revenue, just like that on its own is also misleading.

It's much like saying that SA's debt is +-53% of GDP and that on its own sounds awful to the uninitiated but when you give context by stating that Belgium's debt is +-104% of GDP or Japan is 230% of GDP and the USA is 104% and the UK +-87% it gives some comparative measure against which to weigh up SA's numbers. And again I'm illustrating a point about context. I know that SA's shrinking economy is in stark contrast to these other countries which exacerbates the situation but it does help to illustrate the point that context is important.
Jack Welles (thriller_author pen name)
https://www.amazon.com/Jack-Welles/e/B073VJQTTX
Eddie Haynes-Smart
Textbook - "The Lore of Negotiation"
http://www.loreofnegotiation.com
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Re: WHY SAA MUST GO

Unread post by HJK 414 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:16 pm

SAA - Now CEO in trouble ?
And more money required ....... again.
Turnaround on the long path .........??..... 2021 ... :?
Oh dear - Are we going to see some more infighting and more turf wars ??

Quote :
Embattled airline SAA could be flying into a spot of bother as divisions at the top of the state-owned entity are threatening to scupper its turnaround.

The Mail & Guardian has learned that relations between chief executive Vuyani Jarana and the board have deteriorated, and he has asked government’s shareholder representative, Public Enterprises Minister Pravin Gordhan, to intervene.

SAA’s financial situation is dire. On Tuesday Jarana told MPs that SAA’s turnaround had been pushed back to 2021 and that the airline will require R17-billion in bailouts by next March for working capital and to repay R9-billion in maturing loans, and that R3.5-billion was required as early as December.

The M&G has reliably learned that Jarana avoided an attempt to remove him three weeks ago when three of SAA’s nine non-executive directors backed a proposal to suspend him.............
End quote



whole article - https://mg.co.za/article/2018-11-30-00- ... -rocks-saa

JK
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Re: WHY SAA MUST GO

Unread post by cage » Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:55 pm

HJK 414 wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:16 pm
SAA - Now CEO in trouble ?
... trimmed
I would imagine there would be pushback from some elements, given what he needs to do.
2021, that's practically 2 years away so not far all things considered.

The large amounts of cash needed to get there would seem to indicate the turnaround is slow-going.
Maybe they need their version of load-shedding, just cancel all flights four hours per day ;)
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Re: WHY SAA MUST GO

Unread post by evanb » Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:59 pm

cage wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:55 pm
I would imagine there would be pushback from some elements, given what he needs to do.
2021, that's practically 2 years away so not far all things considered.
Agreed, on the one hand he's probably got the unions out for him, pressure from the pilot's association, and that doesn't even get to the Dudu elements who are likely doing everything they can to protect themselves.

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