Cemair grounded - wins Appeal yet again!

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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by apollo11 » Tue May 14, 2019 8:37 am

Well, even the ruling party after being roundly condemned and accused of inefficiencies, poor policies, bloated cabinet, etc... have turned around admitted their mistakes and taken some constructive criticism, and as we speak sorting some of that out... if the hard-headed ANC govt can the CAA should also...
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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by EDP » Tue May 14, 2019 10:48 am

apollo11 wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 8:37 am
Well, even the ruling party after being roundly condemned and accused of inefficiencies, poor policies, bloated cabinet, etc... have turned around admitted their mistakes and taken some constructive criticism, and as we speak sorting some of that out... if the hard-headed ANC govt can the CAA should also...
When the 'ruling' party take action against the individuals that have been identified, I will believe that they are sincere.

Same applies to SACAA.....
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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by Jack Welles » Tue May 14, 2019 12:50 pm

EDP wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 10:48 am
apollo11 wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 8:37 am
Well, even the ruling party after being roundly condemned and accused of inefficiencies, poor policies, bloated cabinet, etc... have turned around admitted their mistakes and taken some constructive criticism, and as we speak sorting some of that out... if the hard-headed ANC govt can the CAA should also...
When the 'ruling' party take action against the individuals that have been identified, I will believe that they are sincere.
Same applies to SACAA.....
I don't believe there's an equivalence here. The one lot are being accused of corruption, money laundering etc. These are all serious crimes which could, and should, lead to serious jail time.

The CAA lot are being (kind of) accused of (at worst) overreacting, overreaching their authority, applying the regs over harshly without giving the airline space to respond etc before they took action. While none of these accusations are very pleasant to contemplate they are hardly in the same realm as straight out criminals at work.

The most you could expect any reasonable employer to do is, through an internal process, apply some sort of relatively "mild" (compared to criminal court outcomes) sanctions that, being internal, the general public would (quite rightly in terms of labour law) never hear about.

Two very, very different scenarios.
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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by D228100 » Tue May 14, 2019 1:50 pm

I don't believe there's an equivalence here. The one lot are being accused of corruption, money laundering etc. These are all serious crimes which could, and should, lead to serious jail time.

The CAA lot are being (kind of) accused of (at worst) overreacting, overreaching their authority, applying the regs over harshly without giving the airline space to respond etc before they took action. While none of these accusations are very pleasant to contemplate they are hardly in the same realm as straight out criminals at work.

The most you could expect any reasonable employer to do is, through an internal process, apply some sort of relatively "mild" (compared to criminal court outcomes) sanctions that, being internal, the general public would (quite rightly in terms of labour law) never hear about.

Two very, very different scenarios.
[/quote]

Hi Jack

I always enjoy your comments and well thought out level headed responses. I am very sure that if both Cemair and CAA had adopted your approach to this whole matter the circumstances they both find themselves in now would be very different.

However CAA management at Director level would have been very much a part and parcel of making the decision to ground Cemair, in particular on the second occurrence so there is no possibility of them now holding some staff members accountable in an internal process for overreaching their authority. The CAA in this case overreached their authority if you are taking the appeal findings into account. This can't be brushed off with an internal investigation, it needs an outside organisation to investigate and hold those responsible right up to Director level accountable.

I have no doubt that in every avaition organization around the world, if you look hard enough and deep enough you will find many, many cases worthy of discussion as to if they meet regulation or not. It is unfortunately not always as easy as black and white and sometimes there needs to be interpretation of the law or for an expert to form an opinion in order to get clarification, this in your profession is something that i'm sure you deal with everyday.

It is in these times that you need a level head from both sides and someone who is objective that does not have a vestid interest to make decision. CAA always have the excuse that it's in the interest of public safety and thats how it always should be, but sometimes you just have to use common sense of which there is not much around these days.

For both parties involved in this matter " where there is smoke there is fire " this may refer to the CAA having an agenda or a grudge to Cemair not playing entirely by the rules or only seeing their interpretation of the laws.

I do believe that for Cemair to go forward it is necessary to self inspect their approach but that is definately not going to happen when CAA use the very same inspectors that have been responsible for the downfall of the relationship. To me this is the CAA looking to force an issue to try and restore their position, unfortunately it's comes across as childish and is irresponsible as a regulator.
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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by Jack Welles » Tue May 14, 2019 3:15 pm

D228100 wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 1:50 pm
However CAA management at Director level would have been very much a part and parcel of making the decision to ground Cemair, in particular on the second occurrence so there is no possibility of them now holding some staff members accountable in an internal process for overreaching their authority. The CAA in this case overreached their authority if you are taking the appeal findings into account. This can't be brushed off with an internal investigation, it needs an outside organisation to investigate and hold those responsible right up to Director level accountable ... TRIMMED FOR BREVITY
Very fair comments, but I insist that the two scenarios that the other poster put forward as comparable are in fact very different, one is a Criminal Law matter the other is Civil Law. (Please note I'm not taking sides on the substance of the situation that existed/exists between CAA and Cemair, nor stipulating that people shouldn't be punished in some way [if they've done something wrong]).

And then as a personal comment which is just a subjective opinion, if you consider the terrible stuff that's coming out of the Zondo Commission, for example, I don't believe that this Cemair situation calls for Commissions of Inquiry etc. They cost many, many millions to run and it would be disproportionate to the net effects of the bad decision making as stated by the tribunal's judgment. For example, State Capture deserves a Commission and the +-R230 million (and counting) that it is costing to date. I haven't seen their books but would think you could probably buy and sell Cemair a few times for the cost of a full-blown inquiry.
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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by Airwayfreak » Tue May 14, 2019 5:04 pm

Johan.botha wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 5:47 pm
Um that's an odd view....the regulator has to follow the regulations too. And the constitution. And PAJA. And its own Act etc.

This thread is a bit stale. The same 'names' say the same things with the occasional DanPerkins or GL offering a new thought that is then swamped in the same old lines. I am not sure if all of Jack Welles, Falalel, Airwaysfreak work for the CAA (it could even be one) but the obviousness of the promotion of a single view means this isn't a debate but a sermon.

I notice the mods are quick to intervene in other threads but have allowed this one to become toxic. Think there should be more consistency in the approach.
Mr. Botha, rest assured I do not work for the CAA. It's just that I have been involved in the airline game for longer than I wish to remember and I kind of know how things work. Would it make you feel better if I said the CAA was totally out of line and must be lynched at dawn and CemAir is so squeaky clean they should be used in a Sunlight advertisement?

I do not believe this thread has become toxic at all. The only whiff of venom I detect is when participants pose an alternative or opposing argument to the mainstream participants. I have not actually seen either our ex-caravan salesman or our esteemed magazine editor offer any new slant on this sad tale either other than imply that CemAir has done nothing wrong. We all know this to be incorrect simply because of the existence of CAP's and the fact that MvdM has stated quite clearly that there were issues. The argument raised by the ex-caravan salesman that I can not identify an errant duck not covered by a CAP is really a silly argument.

But I think you are right, the arguments are getting stale. CAA screwed up and CemAir are the only airline in the world that have absolutely no ommissions or shortfalls in their entire operation. No point in me adding another piece of stale input. :roll: :roll: :roll:
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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by MilesvdM » Tue May 14, 2019 7:02 pm

Johan.botha wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 5:47 pm
Jack Welles, Falalel, Airwaysf
There is a similar writing style too.

I decline to comment on the uninformed views of those with keyboards in dark rooms and not the courage to step out from behind the vale. The internet has given these people a voice they don't actually have.

The judgement adequately covers the merits of the CAA's case.
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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by Burner » Tue May 14, 2019 7:16 pm

MilesvdM wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 7:02 pm
Johan.botha wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 5:47 pm
Jack Welles, Falalel, Airwaysf
There is a similar writing style too.

I decline to comment on the uninformed views of those with keyboards in dark rooms and not the courage to step out from behind the vale. The internet has given these people a voice they don't actually have.

The judgement adequately covers the merits of the CAA's case.
Do you have an intention to relaunch scheduled operations in South Africa?
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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by micmaq » Wed May 15, 2019 9:16 am

Cemair would be crazy if they did ; they would be hounded by a vindictive CAA

Message for Miles ; Think about relocating your operation to Canada - It is a vast area with many opportunities for a regional start-up - Contact me if you are looking for a partner or just to scope out the possabilities - tom@jpom.ca www.jpom.ca

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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by Burner » Wed May 15, 2019 10:03 am

micmaq wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 9:16 am
Cemair would be crazy if they did ; they would be hounded by a vindictive CAA

Message for Miles ; Think about relocating your operation to Canada - It is a vast area with many opportunities for a regional start-up - Contact me if you are looking for a partner or just to scope out the possabilities - tom@jpom.ca www.jpom.ca

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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by Jack Welles » Wed May 15, 2019 10:11 am

MilesvdM wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 7:02 pm
Johan.botha wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 5:47 pm
Jack Welles, Falalel, Airwaysf
There is a similar writing style too.
I decline to comment on the uninformed views of those with keyboards in dark rooms and not the courage to step out from behind the vale. The internet has given these people a voice they don't actually have.
While I, for one, have some sympathy for you in the position in which you find yourself (for whatever reason) with regard to the CAA your comment is itself not well-informed. My profile is complete both current and historically. Both my professional name (and legal practice) and my writing pseudonym are given with links and are, in any event, easily googleable (although not suggesting you'd be interested in making the effort :lol: ).

However, this kind of comment (and attitude) could almost lead one into thinking that this fiasco was of your own making. I do hope you didn't/don't adopt the same attitude to the regulators (or other businesspeople) when you had/have to work with them.

As an aside: you claim to decline to comment and then comment anyway :? :lol:
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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by tbone » Wed May 15, 2019 10:44 am

As my previous post, nearly 200, tax paying people lost their jobs at CemAir... ironically around 70% of them, are of the pale variety.

CemAir, in an attempt to save or re create some jobs, needs an AOC to do that.

Hereby the point most miss, those people CAA put on the street, though what is now obvious, still need work.

Miles can, and will move the business, but all 400 staff can not join them, therefore keep something going here, they dont have to, they want to.

The easy way out would have been a Nationwide / 1 Time move, to simply not pay anyone’s salaries, nor refund a single customer, take your planes and go live a luxury life somewhere else.... yet, CemAir kept as many staff as they could, the ticket refunds are an ongoing process.

Who out there, would have the balls to do this, without an income for 5 months ?

The armchair experts will forever be present, go build an airline yourself, starting with 5 people, build it to nearly 400, than have it destroyed by a vindictive, out of control regulator.

B.
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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by Jack Welles » Wed May 15, 2019 1:42 pm

tbone wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 10:44 am
than have it destroyed by a vindictive, out of control regulator.
Another anonymous even handed expert in public relations :lol:
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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by Falafel » Wed May 15, 2019 2:21 pm

MilesvdM wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 7:02 pm
Johan.botha wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 5:47 pm
Jack Welles, Falalel, Airwaysf
There is a similar writing style too.
Still dont see what the gripe is with any posts... I simply said try and get along and discuss rather than tackle "head on". I dont mind criticism but I thought my tone was conciliatory rather than confrontational and more with a view to resolving this "stalemate" (which it clearly seems to be)...

Rather than taking the line of lambasting the CAA (again I have said they were clearly wrong), which I doubt will lead to a positive outcome.

Its as if Avcom only wants to see ranting, raving and shouting and the injustice and avoids any constructive discussion which may lead to Cemair flying again. Aggression now that there is a ruling seems to be a little misplaced and going forward maybe the end goal should be the priority :?:

Cemair, with respect, have still not made it clear what they want to do in terms of future :?: I am assuming there is intention to carry on and with that in mind something needs to be done with the relationship... if there is no intention to get airborne again in SA then the hard attitude makes sense, and frankly then probably nothing to lose...
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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by Jack Welles » Wed May 15, 2019 2:41 pm

What interests me is that one lot gets really angry (fuming) when the other lot doesn't agree with them and tend to throw out insults and/or see conspiracies, claim posters are sock puppets (when very obviously not), dish out with defamatory comments etc. The second lot seems at pains to explain (or laugh at the first lot) their position (whatever it might be).

It's the anger, where does it come from? People and opinions differ, no big deal. That's life!
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