Cemair grounded - wins Appeal yet again!

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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by southside » Wed May 15, 2019 2:57 pm

With the grounding, my guess is that some of the pilots may have moved on to different companies and thus if Cemair start up again, they will need to hire pilots. The question is how many pilots that are in an instructor or charter job, that want an opportunity to move up to an airline environment will be reluctant to leave their current job that is secure, with the fear that they may end up jobless and worse off should another grounding happen. Prior to the saga, Cemair was aggressively recruiting and some of those pilots that left full time jobs for Cemair now sit in the position I am referring to.
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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by Jack Welles » Wed May 15, 2019 3:13 pm

That's the worst part of working for other people (especially smaller employers). You never know when the axe is about to fall. It's not unique to aviation. V5 - LEO on this board recently said that he was made redundant. In the end it doesn't matter who was at fault or what the reason is, you're just collateral damage. Maybe that's the worst part, besides the loss of income, you're suddenly unimportant.

It really sucks ... :cry:
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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by Richard Smit » Wed May 15, 2019 3:23 pm

This thread...

There’s a distinct difference between rubbing one’s nose, and picking it until it bleeds.

Important to know the difference.

For what my opinion may be worth, I think this thread has run its course. Reached it’s limit of usefulness.

The CAA need to take a long hard look at themselves, and the integrity of their staff/systems/approach.

Operators, on the other hand need to realize that the Regulator isn’t there to help them succeed commercially. They’re there to enforce regulatory compliance.

Any chance that we can leave it at that now?
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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by GL » Thu May 16, 2019 4:38 pm

This matter is not over yet .... So the thread has been opened again.
In yet another resounding defeat for the CAA, Cemair has triumphed in a request for clarification against the CAA's interpretation that they could just start again from where they had left off with CemAir in December - and carry on with the AOC audit.
The CAAC has ruled that the CAA has to use the documents they have - and even more specifically that Simon Segwabe and his Inspector, Salela, are NOT permitted to inspect CemAir.
The CAA keeps getting it wrong (what's the score now - 6-love?)
I reckon the entire legal department should be booted out.
(I have a pdf of the CAAC ruling but for some reason it wont attach so I attach a key page of the ruling.)
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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by HJK 414 » Thu May 16, 2019 5:10 pm

GL wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 4:38 pm
This matter is not over yet .... So the thread has been opened again.

In yet another resounding defeat for the CAA...………….

……... and even more specifically that Simon Segwabe and his Inspector, Salela, are NOT permitted to inspect CemAir.
That will not help.

He is the Senior Executive that calls the shots and unless the SACAA is "cleaned" - and some people held responsible for the endless fiasco's - this saga will see no end.

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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by Falafel » Fri May 17, 2019 8:40 am

... and here I am trying to be diplomatic and I therefore respectfully concede that this is laughable and I can see Cemair's frustrations.

I really do feel sorry for Cemair proving their point over and over again at massive costs and yet nothing seems to change.
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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by Fransw » Fri May 17, 2019 10:48 am

I'm not following this thread but..

If the CAA were really unjust then please do us a favor and sue them or take them to court. Or stop complaining... :?
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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by Jack Welles » Fri May 17, 2019 11:16 am

Fransw wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 10:48 am
I'm not following this thread but.. If the CAA were really unjust then please do us a favor and sue them or take them to court. Or stop complaining... :?
CAA have really screwed the pooch on this one (and are obviously battling to get their heads around the right approach - also their legal dept isn't doing them any favours or they're being stupidly stubborn because of past interactions) but unfortunately it will be an uphill task suing. Although as every day passes CAA appear to be making it easier for Cemair to claim damages ... :roll:
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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by GL » Fri May 17, 2019 12:11 pm

Fransw wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 10:48 am
I'm not following this thread but..

If the CAA were really unjust then please do us a favor and sue them or take them to court. Or stop complaining... :?
Not so easy. Plenty of sewerage under the bridge. Suing for damages is very difficult.
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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by Jack Welles » Fri May 17, 2019 12:43 pm

Also, Fransw, don't agree with the "stop complaining" comment. Public relations is a form of soft power in any negotiation. It's just how you go about is what counts. So Cemair, in my view, should stay stoically quiet (ie, no more public posts etc - it just exacerbates the already existing damage to the relationship) while Cemair's supporters (apparently unconnected to Cemair) should become ever more vocal.

At the end of the day, if Cemair wants to operate in SA (they may not want to now) then they are going to have to deal with the regulator. CAA isn't going anywhere and no matter how frustrated the disgruntled expressing themselves on the Internet may become that's not going to change. That's a fact of life. And in these situations realpolitik rules.
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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by Fransw » Fri May 17, 2019 12:57 pm

Jack Welles wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 12:43 pm
Also, Fransw, don't agree with the "stop complaining" comment. Public relations is a form of soft power in any negotiation. It's just how you go about is what counts. So Cemair, in my view, should stay stoically quiet (ie, no more public posts etc - it just exacerbates the already existing damage to the relationship) while Cemair's supporters (apparently unconnected to Cemair) should become ever more vocal.

At the end of the day, if Cemair wants to operate in SA (they may not want to now) then they are going to have to deal with the regulator. CAA isn't going anywhere and no matter how frustrated the disgruntled expressing themselves on the Internet may become that's not going to change. That's a fact of life. And in these situations realpolitik rules.
OK, that's an easy assignment. Let's keep on hating them! :x :twisted: :lol: (the CIA..)

Outa here..
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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by GL » Sat May 18, 2019 12:48 pm

CAA is not responding to the clarification notice, so Miles vd Molen is going after Segwabe and Salela in their PERSONAL capacities.
However I guess this does not mean much as they would simply argue that it was nothing personal - they were going after CemAir in the course and scope of their duties - so the CAA - and thus, we the users and payers of the CAA are in fact liable.
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Re: Cemair grounded - and wins appeal yet again!

Unread post by GL » Sat May 18, 2019 12:53 pm

Para 6 is noteworthy:
6. May we have your response by Monday close of business as to when we will
receive the outcome of the AOC renewal. Regrettably, should you not
respond to our letter, we hold instructions to proceed to court with a
mandamus forcing the DCA to comply with her obligation of the Appeal
Committee’s decision. We trust that this will not be necessary. We record that
from the date of the Appeal Committee’s judgment, a period of 18 days has
elapsed and the DCA has not given effect to the Appeal Committee’s
judgment which required immediate action. In addition to the mandamus
which our client has instructed to proceed with on an urgent basis, should a
satisfactory and fair process not be followed henceforth, we are instructed to
report the DCA, Mr Segwabe and Mr Salela to the Director General and to
escalate the complaint at the ministerial level for investigation simultaneously
referring the matter to the Public Protector for investigation as to the true
underlying motive for this behaviour by Mr Segwabe and Mr Salela.
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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by Johan.botha » Sat May 18, 2019 3:12 pm

Note to self: Don't pick a fight with this oke.
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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by Airwayfreak » Sun May 19, 2019 8:00 am

Falafel wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 8:40 am
... and here I am trying to be diplomatic and I therefore respectfully concede that this is laughable and I can see Cemair's frustrations.

I really do feel sorry for Cemair proving their point over and over again at massive costs and yet nothing seems to change.
I suspect the CAA is sharpening their pencils to make sure they do it right this time.

But still no clarity on the genesis of the CemAir/CAA conflict. Lots of conspiracies and emotive comments, but not many facts

It's just so wrong. So many lives of staff and crew negatively affected whilst the animosities prevail
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