Cemair grounded - wins Appeal yet again!

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Re: Cemair grounded - wins Appeal yet again!

Unread post by Prop » Tue May 21, 2019 4:52 pm

Believe that CAA is again ignoring the instruction from the appeals committee.
Wonder if Cemair is going to bring an urgent application to force CAA to comply.
This is getting very insteresting!!!
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Re: Cemair grounded - wins Appeal yet again!

Unread post by Wildcat_004 » Tue May 21, 2019 5:20 pm

Watch the space......
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Re: Cemair grounded - wins Appeal yet again!

Unread post by AC6T » Wed May 22, 2019 8:00 am

HKGK. :twisted:

Give them hell Miles. :smt067 :smt067 :smt066 :smt066 :smt066 :smt067 :smt066 :smt066 :smt066


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Re: Cemair grounded - wins Appeal yet again!

Unread post by HJK 414 » Wed May 22, 2019 9:30 am

Wow,

I am sure Eddie could tell us more about the legal side of things but one wonders whether there is enough ground left to find a solution at all.

Possibility 1 ??
SACAA clean up their act / get rid of the bad apples and get to work / as per the ruling against them ...….without bias...….?
(whereby the last piece is probably the difficult one).

Possibility 2 ??
Miles decides he has had enough abuse to last him a lifetime - and files for consequential damages - based on the grounding and the clear fact that SACAA is now demonstrating that they have no real intention to stop their crusade.

Possibility 3 ??
Miles tries to re-start the Cemair operation in South Africa and we see a repeat of events when the next Audit comes along - under a new banner or a new rule that will be found in the endless creativity of those in charge

I know what I would do ….

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Re: Cemair grounded - wins Appeal yet again!

Unread post by Falafel » Wed May 22, 2019 9:42 am

HJK 414 wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 9:30 am
Wow,

I am sure Eddie could tell us more about the legal side of things but one wonders whether there is enough ground left to find a solution at all.

Possibility 1 ??
SACAA clean up their act / get rid of the bad apples and get to work / as per the ruling against them ...….without bias...….?
(whereby the last piece is probably the difficult one).

Possibility 2 ??
Miles decides he has had enough abuse to last him a lifetime - and files for consequential damages - based on the grounding and the clear fact that SACAA is now demonstrating that they have no real intention to stop their crusade.

Possibility 3 ??
Miles tries to re-start the Cemair operation in South Africa and we see a repeat of events when the next Audit comes along - under a new banner or a new rule that will be found in the endless creativity of those in charge

I know what I would do ….

JK
Know what I would do too... if you want to stay you need to operate within the system... sometimes one needs to accept that this may not be possible and accept which system one applies. Seems the legal system in SA still works so that may be the only battle that can be won right now if one has the stomach for it (read: supply of funds)...

Only rub is that aircraft are standing and it may be getting them airworthy ASAP can start bringing in income and so its a rock and hard place... dont necessarily WANT to work with the CAA but funding standing aircraft cannot continue indefinitely.

I guess there is no simple answer and in the ideal world would be nice to drive the point home, be reimbursed for damages and move on. I have (personally) found that seldom do the courts reimburse for actual damages... there is always some caveat, or some deduction that hasnt been thought of so regardless the cost will be with Cemair in some form or another even if they were/are actually justified.
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Re: Cemair grounded - wins Appeal yet again!

Unread post by Jack Welles » Wed May 22, 2019 12:12 pm

HJK 414 wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 9:30 am
I am sure Eddie could tell us more about the legal side of things but one wonders whether there is enough ground left to find a solution at all.JK
Obviously Cemair is making use of the tribunal judgment to apply maximum pressure to CAA with their order.

The comments that follow are only from a purely legal perspective (not moral, political or any other approach). It's a perfectly proper tactic legally that Cemair is using but I have a small niggle with that case.

Firstly, generally-speaking, CAA was not best served by their legal team (inhouse people?) who appear to not be very trial experienced and with much more experienced counsel, there may have been a different outcome - but, who knows? It might be worth taking senior counsel's advice on that.

Secondly, my small niggle is that with the tribunal stating that CAA had enough information/documents/whatever to make the licence determination it means that they were stepping into the realm of the "experts". What I mean by this is that my gut feel is that when an "expert" (I know in this particular case they may be bloody useless :lol: ) has to decide whether someone has met a standard or not then generally lawyers are not the best people to tell them whether they have enough information to hand or not in order to make such a determination.

Example (somewhat reductio ad absurdum to illustrate a point), experienced neuro-surgeon making split second decision while delving into a brain - lawyers hesitate about deciding whether he should have (metaphorically-speaking) turned left or right at the intersection - he is supposed to be the expert.

Given the above I am of the view that it might pay CAA to take that judgment to the High Court on review with a much more experienced legal team. What happens if the "expert" genuinely believes he cannot make a determination on the available information and simply requires more? That judgment says he's not allowed more no matter what transpires or what he might discover as he reviews the situation. I am uncomfortable with that.

NOTE: please don't shoot the messenger, it hurts even if not fatal :lol: Please attack the message - I'd welcome "informed" legal debate, especially as I have not studied this whole thing word for word (no-one is paying me and I have to remain true to my calling :lol: )

As an aside: I don't see an easy damages claim here for Cemair.
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Re: Cemair grounded - wins Appeal yet again!

Unread post by richard C » Wed May 22, 2019 2:15 pm

I see your point Eddie - sets a dangerous legal precedent. Would the magistrate have been exposed to 'expert witnesses' during the appeal process, and therefore not making a ruling on his own (or one of the council's) interpretation, but making a ruling based on the opinion of an expert witness ?
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Re: Cemair grounded - wins Appeal yet again!

Unread post by Jack Welles » Wed May 22, 2019 2:32 pm

richard C wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 2:15 pm
I see your point Eddie - sets a dangerous legal precedent. Would the magistrate have been exposed to 'expert witnesses' during the appeal process, and therefore not making a ruling on his own (or one of the council's) interpretation, but making a ruling based on the opinion of an expert witness ?
You are exactly right. My little instant analysis was pretty simplistic. What a court does (tribunal in this case) is listen to experts and then decide which one is the most credible and then make a ruling on that. The lawyers don't make the actual decision. Which is fine as far as it goes.

But what happpens when the AMO says: "Hang on, now that I've opened the engine I need to do more tests on the pistons (or whatever)." But he can't because the court/tribunal has said : "No, you are only allowed to do the tests that we have already accepted as necessary because they were stipulated by the expert witness that we have chosen to believe." Poor old AMO stymied. He knows that he can't pronounce on the engine without further tests but the court/tribunal have said he can't do them.

Same thing would happen to an Architect that was being asked to give the okay to a building (not sure if this actually ever happens in real life but a hypothetical example that comes to mind) but he's not allowed to add any tests or requests for documents beyond that which he was originally given. What happens if he comes across something during his inspection that worries him? Stymied by the court/tribunal judgment.

Hope I'm getting my point across without getting involved in how useless or otherwise (or vindictive etc) the CAA inspectors might be or how responsive Cemair might or might not have been.
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Re: Cemair grounded - wins Appeal yet again!

Unread post by Burner » Wed May 22, 2019 2:56 pm

I see this letter from the CAA to Cemair's lawyers, was shared on AOPAs Facebook page.
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Re: Cemair grounded - wins Appeal yet again!

Unread post by Jack Welles » Wed May 22, 2019 3:17 pm

Burner wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 2:56 pm
I see this letter from the CAA to Cemair's lawyers, was shared on AOPAs Facebook page.
Indeed, a very lawyerly letter. Neither side giving an inch. Fe fi fo fum I smell fees, fees and more fees :lol:

Haven't these people heard of the concept "negotiation"? :roll:
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Re: Cemair grounded - wins Appeal yet again!

Unread post by Burner » Wed May 22, 2019 3:21 pm

Seems no sense of urgency from either side to resolve the issues. Surely Cemair doesn't want to drag this thing out?
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Re: Cemair grounded - wins Appeal yet again!

Unread post by AC6T » Wed May 22, 2019 3:30 pm

Burner wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 3:21 pm
Seems no sense of urgency from either side to resolve the issues. Surely Cemair doesn't want to drag this thing out?
The CAAC ruling allowed CemAir to move their aircraft as the C of A's were reinstated..

I see the first 1900 arrived in Canada the other day.

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Re: Cemair grounded - wins Appeal yet again!

Unread post by Burner » Wed May 22, 2019 3:34 pm

AC6T wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 3:30 pm
Burner wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 3:21 pm
Seems no sense of urgency from either side to resolve the issues. Surely Cemair doesn't want to drag this thing out?
The CAAC ruling allowed CemAir to move their aircraft as the C of A's were reinstated..

I see the first 1900 arrived in Canada the other day.

6T
And the leased Dash 8 Q4's? Have they been returned to the lessors? It just seems that it's a case of cutting off ones nose to spite one's face here.
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Re: Cemair grounded - wins Appeal yet again!

Unread post by AC6T » Wed May 22, 2019 3:47 pm

Burner wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 3:34 pm
AC6T wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 3:30 pm
Burner wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 3:21 pm
Seems no sense of urgency from either side to resolve the issues. Surely Cemair doesn't want to drag this thing out?
The CAAC ruling allowed CemAir to move their aircraft as the C of A's were reinstated..

I see the first 1900 arrived in Canada the other day.

6T
And the leased Dash 8 Q4's? Have they been returned to the lessors? It just seems that it's a case of cutting off ones nose to spite one's face here.
Possibly waiting in line for export C of A's or maintenance prior to leaving for a contact.

I doubt CemAir would be screwing around in getting the AOC up and running. Personally I believe that the CAA are being spiteful, why send inspectors that have had their credentials questiond to compete the renewal audit. Something doesn't add up.

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Re: Cemair grounded - wins Appeal yet again!

Unread post by Wildcat_004 » Wed May 22, 2019 5:06 pm

AC6T......eventually somebody is seeing the light.....so absolutely true.

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