SAA Pilot Flies with fake ATPL for almost 20 years

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Re: SAA Pilot Flies with fake ATPL for almost 20 years

Unread post by cage » Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:06 pm

jimdavis wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:52 pm
Did you read the news clip? Chandler was "taken into custody". That means arrested by the police.
Yes, he was charged with fraud by his former employer, it wasn't the NPA that took action out of their own initiative.
Who is going to lay a charge against the taxi driver?
In this respect the police/NPA are treating both equally ie not at all.
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Re: SAA Pilot Flies with fake ATPL for almost 20 years

Unread post by Burner » Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:18 pm

jimdavis wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:52 pm
cage wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:47 pm
jimdavis wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:41 pm
I find that absolutely horrifying. If every taxi driver with a forged license was arrested and bunged in cookie the roads would be blissfully clear. Is there a sliding scale for forgery?
Neither the taxi driver's employer nor his pax cares whether or not he is licensed.
Being licensed would be a disadvantage as there is a chance they may want to obey a few laws which would be a disadvantage for business.

The bar is set somewhat higher by the pilot's colleagues, employer and especially pax.

All crimes should be equal but the expected standards certainly aren't.
This has nothing to do with colleagues, employers or pax. Did you read the news clip? Chandler was "taken into custody". That means arrested by the police.

jim
Fraud is fraud... as far as I'm concerned the actions are correct. As has been alluded to previously on the thread, someone whom forges their licence (albeit from CPL to ATPL, whilst not actually requiring the ATPL by law), clearly is of little integrity, and one wonders what other paper work he has been tampered with in the past now.
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Re: SAA Pilot Flies with fake ATPL for almost 20 years

Unread post by cage » Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:27 pm

Burner wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:18 pm
Fraud is fraud... as far as I'm concerned the actions are correct. As has been alluded to previously on the thread, someone whom forges their licence (albeit from CPL to ATPL, whilst not actually requiring the ATPL by law), clearly is of little integrity, and one wonders what other paper work he has been tampered with in the past now.
spare a thought for all those having to dig documentation out of the woodwork to prove they are legally licensed, all thanks to a bad apple.
Respectfully, dragging taxi drivers into the equation is a comparison I doubt many will appreciate and is just a strawman to justify letting the guy off the hook.

In the ideal world everyone gets what they deserve but we don't live in an ideal world.
Some civilised cultures no longer punish what they consider minor crimes, does that mean it's ok? nope, that's just the way the system works.

To requote Jack/Eddie - if you can't do the time don't do the crime.
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Re: SAA Pilot Flies with fake ATPL for almost 20 years

Unread post by HAAN » Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:26 am

Chandler handed himself over to the SAP.
Released on R5000 bail.
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Re: SAA Pilot Flies with fake ATPL for almost 20 years

Unread post by Jack Welles » Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:50 am

cage wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:06 pm
jimdavis wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:52 pm
Did you read the news clip? Chandler was "taken into custody". That means arrested by the police.
Yes, he was charged with fraud by his former employer, it wasn't the NPA that took action out of their own initiative.
Who is going to lay a charge against the taxi driver? In this respect the police/NPA are treating both equally ie not at all.
Just a heads up. Procedure is that charge was laid with SAPS, docket opened, he was advised, so handed himself in so could be officially arrested without them having to knock on his door and scare the children and puppies. Arrest means SAPS investigation can go ahead. NPA only get involved when SAPS complete their investigation and hand docket over to NPA for their consideration.

And agree can't compare taxi drivers and this case. Only starts when charge is laid. If no-one lays a charge (and cops don't pick it up for themselves at, eg, a roadblock) then no SAPS investigation takes place.
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Re: SAA Pilot Flies with fake ATPL for almost 20 years

Unread post by Fransw » Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:02 am

Good luck to him! He made a big mistake but he is still entitled to a fair trail!

Strongs to you William Chandler!..
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Re: SAA Pilot Flies with fake ATPL for almost 20 years

Unread post by jean » Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:11 pm

Burner wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:18 pm
jimdavis wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:52 pm
cage wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:47 pm


Neither the taxi driver's employer nor his pax cares whether or not he is licensed.
Being licensed would be a disadvantage as there is a chance they may want to obey a few laws which would be a disadvantage for business.

The bar is set somewhat higher by the pilot's colleagues, employer and especially pax.

All crimes should be equal but the expected standards certainly aren't.
This has nothing to do with colleagues, employers or pax. Did you read the news clip? Chandler was "taken into custody". That means arrested by the police.

jim
Fraud is fraud... as far as I'm concerned the actions are correct. As has been alluded to previously on the thread, someone whom forges their licence (albeit from CPL to ATPL, whilst not actually requiring the ATPL by law), clearly is of little integrity, and one wonders what other paper work he has been tampered with in the past now.
I wonder what some okes would have said if that criminal was black as I presume he is white...
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Re: SAA Pilot Flies with fake ATPL for almost 20 years

Unread post by jean » Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:36 pm

Fransw wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:02 am
Good luck to him! He made a big mistake but he is still entitled to a fair trail!

Strongs to you William Chandler!..
"trail" of deceit, for sure
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Re: SAA Pilot Flies with fake ATPL for almost 20 years

Unread post by Fransw » Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:23 pm

jean wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:36 pm
Fransw wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:02 am
Good luck to him! He made a big mistake but he is still entitled to a fair trail!

Strongs to you William Chandler!..
"trail" of deceit, for sure
Bad spelling. Sorry!....Trial...

But I understand what you mean..
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Re: SAA Pilot Flies with fake ATPL for almost 20 years

Unread post by uMoya-san » Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:34 pm

Fifteen pages and running, of human outpour from hot to cold.

Interesting interactions.

- he must, he should, he was, he is, he will, he can’t …

The case is clear.

He did it.

The solution actually was simple and just required a modicum of vision.

It would of course also help if the advisors to the leadership in the country would have their finger on the pulse so as to diffuse a situation and nip it in the bud right there. A 340-600 grounded and investigated by the Germans surely is an event that pops up on some screens of local heavyweights? It’s not like an incident with an NTCA now is it?

Instead of a 'hoo-ha tar and feathers commotion' racing around the planet, which even I became aware of in a little village in Germany, — that an SA ‘ATPL’ wasn’t what he made out to be, — although he clearly and competently was, all that needed doing was that our SACAA immediately would have admitted to a bureaucratic oversight, issued a statement reaffirming its commitment to excellence and blah-di-blah, praising the expert training and selection of its pilots, called in the venerable W Chandler for a private meeting, and we would have been spared the international embarrassment that will follow us around like a bad garlic breath for years.

Hell, I probably sat somewhere in the back on more than one occasion visiting family with FO W Chandler at the controls. I am still around. Thank you, Sir!

But no, we have to go from whisper to flute to trumpet as if it is some crusade to be followed.

Sometimes textbook action and logic, in the greater scheme of things, especially outside the cockpit and in this case for our country, are exactly that which is NOT required to smooth over a bump that has now become another lead weight on the ball and chain of South African aviation foremost to those sitting (or striving to sit) in the first two seats up front.

I am too old for the hailing wrath — of those seething with anger, screaming for punishment and justice and venting gas, — to upset me in my comfort zone of unobscured vision. After all, it's just another opinion that can be pulverized by the verbal shotgun of the winged marks(wo)men.

I think it was Whirly that said, "give the man the ATPL."

If we can't handle exceptions then we already act like robots.
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Re: SAA Pilot Flies with fake ATPL for almost 20 years

Unread post by Falafel » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:44 am

uMoya-san wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:34 pm
Fifteen pages and running, of human outpour from hot to cold.

Interesting interactions.

- he must, he should, he was, he is, he will, he can’t …

The case is clear.

He did it.

The solution actually was simple and just required a modicum of vision.

It would of course also help if the advisors to the leadership in the country would have their finger on the pulse so as to diffuse a situation and nip it in the bud right there. A 340-600 grounded and investigated by the Germans surely is an event that pops up on some screens of local heavyweights? It’s not like an incident with an NTCA now is it?

Instead of a 'hoo-ha tar and feathers commotion' racing around the planet, which even I became aware of in a little village in Germany, — that an SA ‘ATPL’ wasn’t what he made out to be, — although he clearly and competently was, all that needed doing was that our SACAA immediately would have admitted to a bureaucratic oversight, issued a statement reaffirming its commitment to excellence and blah-di-blah, praising the expert training and selection of its pilots, called in the venerable W Chandler for a private meeting, and we would have been spared the international embarrassment that will follow us around like a bad garlic breath for years.

Hell, I probably sat somewhere in the back on more than one occasion visiting family with FO W Chandler at the controls. I am still around. Thank you, Sir!

But no, we have to go from whisper to flute to trumpet as if it is some crusade to be followed.

Sometimes textbook action and logic, in the greater scheme of things, especially outside the cockpit and in this case for our country, are exactly that which is NOT required to smooth over a bump that has now become another lead weight on the ball and chain of South African aviation foremost to those sitting (or striving to sit) in the first two seats up front.

I am too old for the hailing wrath — of those seething with anger, screaming for punishment and justice and venting gas, — to upset me in my comfort zone of unobscured vision. After all, it's just another opinion that can be pulverized by the verbal shotgun of the winged marks(wo)men.

I think it was Whirly that said, "give the man the ATPL."

If we can't handle exceptions then we already act like robots.
Firstly Shakespeare what are you on about :?:

Secondly without going into every little detail of your rather laborious "hymn", I would suggest that saying that this may be "handling an exception" makes me realise just how far down we have gone in terms of right and wrong... unless I am missing something in your poem :?:
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Re: SAA Pilot Flies with fake ATPL for almost 20 years

Unread post by Jack Welles » Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:25 am

If the man did what they allege he did then he is a criminal - finish and klaar.

There isn't one law for my buddy the pilot and a different law for everyone else. That he gets charged for his alleged crimes is a feather in the SA law enforcement cap. Now all we have to do is extend it to the rest we keep hearing about on the news and especially in all the commissions on the go. That will improve SA's image (and ratings!).

Letting criminals off with a little chat in a backroom is a recipe for (the rule of law) disaster in any country.
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Re: SAA Pilot Flies with fake ATPL for almost 20 years

Unread post by jimdavis » Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:41 am

Falafel wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:44 am
Firstly Shakespeare what are you on about :?:

Secondly without going into every little detail of your rather laborious "hymn", I would suggest that saying that this may be "handling an exception" makes me realise just how far down we have gone in terms of right and wrong... unless I am missing something in your poem :?:
It is called understanding and compassion and it's not incompatible with legal processes.

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Re: SAA Pilot Flies with fake ATPL for almost 20 years

Unread post by Jack Welles » Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:03 am

Wow! Some Avcommers have come up with a new (much easier) career path for airline pilots.

All you have to do is fake a licence then use it for X years and get away with it. After that you get taken into a backroom and given the licence for free without having to pass any exams. This is especially useful if you're too stupid to pass the exams in the first place.

Sorry, Brand, you'll be out of the lecturing business.
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Re: SAA Pilot Flies with fake ATPL for almost 20 years

Unread post by Falafel » Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:03 am

jimdavis wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:41 am
Falafel wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:44 am
Firstly Shakespeare what are you on about :?:

Secondly without going into every little detail of your rather laborious "hymn", I would suggest that saying that this may be "handling an exception" makes me realise just how far down we have gone in terms of right and wrong... unless I am missing something in your poem :?:
It is called understanding and compassion and it's not incompatible with legal processes.

jim
I think we can agree that the law does try and be fair... so there is no dispute there. I actually feel for him... I think that sometimes one becomes so caught up in something that one doesnt think clearly any longer... what started out as a simple "fiddle", perhaps for his percieved "survival" got a life of its own and then became impossible to reverse, and so the years went on, retirement started to loom, lifestyle could not go back and so on... the bottom line is that there are those who never cross the line, and never allow the lifestyle to get better simply because of their unwavering commitment to the process and dare I say it, may never get the benefit of an SAA salary because of their respect for the process and the law...

So while there may be understanding in terms of his predicament now, there should be more sympathy for the position he took from those who did not "fiddle" the paperwork and were kept out of SAA as a result...

There is also alot of pride at SAA still... and pilots and crew, even though the airline has a rather large cloud, walk around wearing the uniform with pride and want to retain the respect that has taken many years to earn.... and something like this shoots holes in many years of goodwill...

I feel a little sorry for him, but feel more sorry for everyone else... I feel sorry mostly for the family and the legacy he will leave behind with his family... their Dad and mentor was living a lie and someone who they perhaps looked up to was found wanting and now will be remembered for this...

There are more W Chandlers around us than we realise I think... people who are respected pillars of the community who supposedly have respectable businesses, and earn good livings but yet have some serious skeletons in their closets...

I think you will find that many who have posted here know of a "W Chandler", and have suffered in some small way as a result of someone who "fiddled" things to get ahead and is now sitting in a great position as a result of a lie... feel sorry for them rather because he is a symbol of things wrong in a society....

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