SAA Pilot Flies with fake ATPL for almost 20 years

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Re: SAA Pilot Flies with fake ATPL for almost 20 years

Unread post by skyvan » Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:24 am

For all our various opinions, and emotions, this is now an issue for the legal system, and his previous employer to sort out.

The report will be sent to the NPA, who will make a decision on the benefits of prosecution, which may, along with his (and his legal team's) input, result in a swift plea bargain and a dying down of the topic, which I am sure he, along with most SAA and ex-SAA pilots would be grateful for.

I wonder about the civil side, SAA are the victims of a fraud, yet since he never advanced beyond what his legitimate licence allowed him to do, so did they suffer a loss that they could pursue?
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Re: SAA Pilot Flies with fake ATPL for almost 20 years

Unread post by jimdavis » Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:46 am

Jack Welles wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:03 am
Wow! Some Avcommers have come up with a new (much easier) career path for airline pilots.

All you have to do is fake a licence then use it for X years and get away with it. After that you get taken into a backroom and given the licence for free without having to pass any exams. This is especially useful if you're too stupid to pass the exams in the first place.

Sorry, Brand, you'll be out of the lecturing business.
So Eddie, are honorary degrees awarded to people who are too stupid to pass the exams? Is it a "fake" degree because it is awarded for years of excellence rather than writing a thesis?

No, of course I am not suggesting a new route to pilot licenses, nor am I condoning fraud, but I am appalled at the venom being spat at this particular fraudster.

Have we all led such pure lives that no one could point a finger if everything we have done were laid out for public scrutiny? No one ever gyppoed the tax man? or elevated an insurance claim? or driven over the speed limit? or booze limit?

I am simply suggesting that we should tone down the vitriol and let the law take its course.

jim
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Re: SAA Pilot Flies with fake ATPL for almost 20 years

Unread post by Jack Welles » Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:56 am

skyvan wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:24 am
I wonder about the civil side, SAA are the victims of a fraud, yet since he never advanced beyond what his legitimate licence allowed him to do, so did they suffer a loss that they could pursue?
With this I have to respectfully disagree. Here you appear to be focusing on only one aspect of the law, ie, Aviation law.

You have to separate what Aviation Law allowed him to do and what Contractual Law allowed him to do. AIUI his employment contract stipulated that after 5 years he had to have obtained an ATPL. Thus his flying after that time was in contravention of his employment contract. IOW He "advanced" (ie, stayed in the job) beyond the 5-year period with a fake licence. Thus in terms of the employment contract he was not entitled to any salary after that time.

In terms of the civil law, the employer can go after him for the monies he was paid after that date.

In terms of the Proceeds of Crime Act, 1996, the State can also go after any monies earned through the criminal acts of fraud and uttering (which he is charged with).

It should always be remembered that, in addition to the above, his fellow SAA pilots (and SAA) have suffered huge reputational damage as a result of the alleged criminal behaviour. They really do need to show that their hearts are in the right place by denouncing, and indeed punishing where possible, such criminal acts.

As an aside: this is no different to Sipho who faked a Master's degree certificate (while only holding a B degree) in order to get a job as a Senior Accountant with Eskom. Or Jiba who got a senior position in the NPA while being neither an Attorney nor an Advocate but apparently presenting herself as an Advocate (according to the Commission evidence).
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Re: SAA Pilot Flies with fake ATPL for almost 20 years

Unread post by Fransw » Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:05 am

jimdavis wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:46 am
Jack Welles wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:03 am
Wow! Some Avcommers have come up with a new (much easier) career path for airline pilots.

All you have to do is fake a licence then use it for X years and get away with it. After that you get taken into a backroom and given the licence for free without having to pass any exams. This is especially useful if you're too stupid to pass the exams in the first place.

Sorry, Brand, you'll be out of the lecturing business.
So Eddie, are honorary degrees awarded to people who are too stupid to pass the exams? Is it a "fake" degree because it is awarded for years of excellence rather than writing a thesis?

No, of course I am not suggesting a new route to pilot licenses, nor am I condoning fraud, but I am appalled at the venom being spat at this particular fraudster.

Have we all led such pure lives that no one could point a finger if everything we have done were laid out for public scrutiny? No one ever gyppoed the tax man? or elevated an insurance claim? or driven over the speed limit? or booze limit?

I am simply suggesting that we should tone down the vitriol and let the law take its course.

jim
I agree, especially your last sentence!

Is it really necessary to go on and on and on and on and on?

I think there is something else that drives all this bitter comments..
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Re: SAA Pilot Flies with fake ATPL for almost 20 years

Unread post by Jack Welles » Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:09 am

jimdavis wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:46 am
[So Eddie, are honorary degrees awarded to people who are too stupid to pass the exams? Is it a "fake" degree because it is awarded for years of excellence rather than writing a thesis?
Strawman [-X . This pilot did not do anything extraordinary to deserve an "honorary" ATPL (which is what honorary degree recipients will have done). In any event the pilot licencing system doesn't allow for such to be granted so the comment is irrelevant on that ground, as well.
No, of course I am not suggesting a new route to pilot licenses, nor am I condoning fraud, but I am appalled at the venom being spat at this particular fraudster.
Hope you're not referring to my posts because all I've done is apply the Rule of Law to the situation, which SA needs a lot more of in my opinion. Not a snakebite to be seen :lol:
Have we all led such pure lives that no one could point a finger if everything we have done were laid out for public scrutiny? No one ever gyppoed the tax man? or elevated an insurance claim? or driven over the speed limit? or booze limit?
Ah, so in that case not even Zuma should answer to the courts because some of us poor sods may have broken some relatively minor law? Not a good argument.
I am simply suggesting that we should tone down the vitriol and let the law take its course. jim
The posts defending the rule of law are in direct response to the posts appearing to make all sorts of "special considerations and concessions" in the Chandler matter. Many of which appear to be promoting an "ignore the law" agenda.
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Re: SAA Pilot Flies with fake ATPL for almost 20 years

Unread post by Burner » Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:16 am

Question... did he turn down command because he felt it was the "right thing to do"... bearing in mind, that the right thing to do would to have never defrauded his employer, or come clean years ago.
Or did he turn down command, because the CAA would have refused to endorse the P1 rating on his CPL when he upgraded, and he would have been caught out?
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Re: SAA Pilot Flies with fake ATPL for almost 20 years

Unread post by Airwayfreak » Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:44 am

Burner wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:16 am
Or did he turn down command, because the CAA would have refused to endorse the P1 rating on his CPL when he upgraded, and he would have been caught out?
CAA would not have refused a P1 endorsement. Its perfectly legal to have a P1 endorsement for an A340 on a CPL. An ATPL is only required for part 121 ops
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Re: SAA Pilot Flies with fake ATPL for almost 20 years

Unread post by skyvan » Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:45 am

Jack Welles wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:56 am
skyvan wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:24 am
I wonder about the civil side, SAA are the victims of a fraud, yet since he never advanced beyond what his legitimate licence allowed him to do, so did they suffer a loss that they could pursue?
With this I have to respectfully disagree. Here you appear to be focusing on only one aspect of the law, ie, Aviation law.

You have to separate what Aviation Law allowed him to do and what Contractual Law allowed him to do. AIUI his employment contract stipulated that after 5 years he had to have obtained an ATPL. Thus his flying after that time was in contravention of his employment contract. IOW He "advanced" (ie, stayed in the job) beyond the 5-year period with a fake licence. Thus in terms of the employment contract he was not entitled to any salary after that time.

In terms of the civil law, the employer can go after him for the monies he was paid after that date.

In terms of the Proceeds of Crime Act, 1996, the State can also go after any monies earned through the criminal acts of fraud and uttering (which he is charged with).

It should always be remembered that, in addition to the above, his fellow SAA pilots (and SAA) have suffered huge reputational damage as a result of the alleged criminal behaviour. They really do need to show that their hearts are in the right place by denouncing, and indeed punishing where possible, such criminal acts.

As an aside: this is no different to Sipho who faked a Master's degree certificate (while only holding a B degree) in order to get a job as a Senior Accountant with Eskom. Or Jiba who got a senior position in the NPA while being neither an Attorney nor an Advocate but apparently presenting herself as an Advocate (according to the Commission evidence).
Thanks, Eddie, that was what I was getting at. As a non-legal type, I was wondering what the law would say about the earning resulting from the fraud, even though they would have suffered no loss directly from the fraud.

I agree, it is no different from anyone overstating their qualifications, but in this career, would it be harder to assign a "loss"to the fraud as the flights still did fly, rather than, say, an engineer who designs a bridge badly so it needs to be re-built or re-designed.

I am merely asking questions, I have little respect for the man considering the length of time he perpetrated the crime. I also know how accommodating SAA were with anyone who didn't have an ATPL when they approached their 5 year cut-off, so there really was no excuse for this crime.
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Re: SAA Pilot Flies with fake ATPL for almost 20 years

Unread post by Jack Welles » Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:45 am

Burner wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:16 am
Question... did he turn down command because he felt it was the "right thing to do"... bearing in mind, that the right thing to do would to have never defrauded his employer, or come clean years ago.
Or did he turn down command, because the CAA would have refused to endorse the P1 rating on his CPL when he upgraded, and he would have been caught out?
I would think that only the person himself could answer that one. Anything else would be speculation.
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Re: SAA Pilot Flies with fake ATPL for almost 20 years

Unread post by cage » Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:49 am

Fransw wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:05 am
Is it really necessary to go on and on and on and on and on?
I think there is something else that drives all this bitter comments..
As long as people continue to insist that special treatment on tenuous grounds is required, it is quite reasonable to expect rebuttal.
There has also been very little bitterness or vitriole, it has been (mostly) objective comments that the law should be followed and that because we can relate/identify with the individual that he shouldn't be treated differently.
I, like many others, have friends that are having to live with the consequences of his actions, so those that continue to justify a deviation from accepted practice should consider everyone that has been affected, and the damage to a fragile industry that everyone supposedly holds dear.
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Re: SAA Pilot Flies with fake ATPL for almost 20 years

Unread post by Multirotordronepilot » Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:50 am

Burner wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:16 am
Question... did he turn down command because he felt it was the "right thing to do"... bearing in mind, that the right thing to do would to have never defrauded his employer, or come clean years ago.
Or did he turn down command, because the CAA would have refused to endorse the P1 rating on his CPL when he upgraded, and he would have been caught out?

Burner, considering " the right thing to do " I'm sure most would agree that this was in no way part of his rational thought process with regards to his career over the last decade or two.
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Re: SAA Pilot Flies with fake ATPL for almost 20 years

Unread post by Burner » Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:03 am

Airwayfreak wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:44 am
Burner wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:16 am
Or did he turn down command, because the CAA would have refused to endorse the P1 rating on his CPL when he upgraded, and he would have been caught out?
CAA would not have refused a P1 endorsement. Its perfectly legal to have a P1 endorsement for an A340 on a CPL. An ATPL is only required for part 121 ops
It would have at the very least certainly raised eyebrows and drawn possible attention, since they would be well aware that the A340 is not used for Part 91 ops on the ZS register.
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Re: SAA Pilot Flies with fake ATPL for almost 20 years

Unread post by Jack Welles » Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:04 am

skyvan wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:45 am
As a non-legal type, I was wondering what the law would say about the earning resulting from the fraud, even though they would have suffered no loss directly from the fraud.

I agree, it is no different from anyone overstating their qualifications, but in this career, would it be harder to assign a "loss"to the fraud as the flights still did fly, rather than, say, an engineer who designs a bridge badly so it needs to be re-built or re-designed.

I am merely asking questions, I have little respect for the man considering the length of time he perpetrated the crime. I also know how accommodating SAA were with anyone who didn't have an ATPL when they approached their 5 year cut-off, so there really was no excuse for this crime.
I understand it is hard for some to understand what they see as a "victimless" crime (or as in your question "costless" crime) being punished. The trouble is that truly no crime is without a cost or a victim (ie, someone suffering harm of some description). Here one could point just for starters to: 1) someone who was qualified (employment contract-wise) was done out of a seat, 2) the reputational damage done to the rest of the SAA pilots 3) the reputational damage done to the airline 4) the potential if there had been an accident for insurance companies to repudiate claims 5) more broadly, society as a whole suffers when people are allowed to get away with this stuff ( I know, I know, pretty esoteric), which is the problem SA is currently being made horribly aware of through the various commissions on the go.

Incidentally, Jiba was apparently pretty good at her job (no bridges colloapsed :lol:) except that there appears to be evidence (in the commission) that she was pretty solidly on Zuma's team. Apparently the same spreading of corruption happened at SAA. Vickie Buxton is alleged to have facilitated the fraud at some stage. That's the problem with this stuff. That's why (despite often being labeled as a snowflake :D ) I'm a pretty zero-tolerance guy when it comes to the rule of law. Corruption is like a virus :evil:

And, yes, Jim, if someone fiddles their taxes or breaks the speed limit or drives drunk and they get caught they should be zapped, too, and that includes me and my wife and my son.
Last edited by Jack Welles on Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: SAA Pilot Flies with fake ATPL for almost 20 years

Unread post by Whirly » Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:17 am

OK. So only punish this guy if Zuma and Jiba get punished. :twisted:

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Re: SAA Pilot Flies with fake ATPL for almost 20 years

Unread post by Jack Welles » Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:19 am

Whirly wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:17 am
OK. So only punish this guy if Zuma and Jiba get punished. :twisted: Whirly.
The logic escapes me :?
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