SAA Pilot Flies with fake ATPL for almost 20 years

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Re: SAA Pilot Flies with fake ATPL for almost 20 years

Unread post by cage » Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:10 am

richard C wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:43 am

I thought you do - they're called extenuating or mitigating circumstances.

As I always understood it, those don't affect guilt but influence the punishment.
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Re: SAA Pilot Flies with fake ATPL for almost 20 years

Unread post by Jack Welles » Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:19 am

richard C wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:43 am
You don't get a halfway-house between innocent and guilty called semi-guilty, you don't get a halfway-house between law-abiding and criminal called semi-criminal. You don't get a halfway-house between honest and fake called semi-fake. Die ding is reg of verkeerd.
I thought you do - they're called extenuating or mitigating circumstances. I would guess that here there aren't any, however...
:D Close but no cigar!

Those are used for deciding on the extent of the punishment once guilt has been established. There are guidelines laid down for sentencing which can be departed from by the judge/magistrate according to those circs.

IOW there is no semi-guilty. You did it or you didn't. If you did, now you have to pay the price. That price depends on those circs.

BTW there can also be aggravating circs. Example, you weren't just raped by that aggressive female but she forced you to do it in an exceptionally degrading way ....

In this particular case I would think that the prosecution may very well argue that there are aggravating circs, ie, flying passengers and not just cargo, behaving criminally for 20 years and not just 1 year, etc etc
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Re: SAA Pilot Flies with fake ATPL for almost 20 years

Unread post by richard C » Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:21 am

Thanks for the clarification !!
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Re: SAA Pilot Flies with fake ATPL for almost 20 years

Unread post by chunky » Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:57 am

Seems there was no discrepancy regarding his abilities to operate the aircraft, or his computer skill to make his license.
He never had an accident or any other problem while using his valid CPL with required rating to CO-PILOT the aircraft.

The airline justified not repremanding a first officer not so long ago who was drunk on duty and acting (moderated) in the hotel.

Fraud vs Gross Misconduct. Chances of Chandler having an accident because he had printed hi license at home vs the probability that the drunk first officer would have had his hand in killing all on board while intoxicated.

SAA management / Cabal didnt really make anything of the drunk FO, perhaps they should show consistency in the handling of this matter.

I wonder if 20 years experience as a FO with SAA, should he not be given an ATP on experience alone.
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Re: SAA Pilot Flies with fake ATPL for almost 20 years

Unread post by jimdavis » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:07 am

chunky wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:57 am
Seems there was no discrepancy regarding his abilities to operate the aircraft, or his computer skill to make his license.
He never had an accident or any other problem while using his valid CPL with required rating to CO-PILOT the aircraft.

The airline justified not repremanding a first officer not so long ago who was drunk on duty and acting like a (moderated) in the hotel.

Fraud vs Gross Misconduct. Chances of Chandler having an accident because he had printed hi license at home vs the probability that the drunk first officer would have had his hand in killing all on board while intoxicated.

SAA management / Cabal didnt really make anything of the drunk FO, perhaps they should show consistency in the handling of this matter.

I wonder if 20 years experience as a FO with SAA, should he not be given an ATP on experience alone.
Absolutely right, Chunks, the drunk FO, about to board the aircraft in London, was three times over the limit for driving, and SAA didn't even rap him over the knuckles. They swept it under the carpet and hoped it would go away. It may have only had limited exposure to the public, but it has done a lot to polarise the attitudes of SAA's aircrews.

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Re: SAA Pilot Flies with fake ATPL for almost 20 years

Unread post by cage » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:13 am

chunky wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:57 am
I wonder if 20 years experience as a FO with SAA, should he not be given an ATP on experience alone.
The strawmen are arriving thick and fast.
He definitely should, as should everyone who lied they had a matric certificate or a degree be given one because they could do their jobs.
Let's just do away with qualifications, certification and regulation all together. Let's just leave those up to whether or not you can get away with not hurting anyone or if people can identify with you or think you're a "lekker oke".

That is a far better system.

btw the FO would have been locked up and charged if there had been evidence to do so. That happened offshore where they are quite good at locking pilots up. Avcommers can't relate to that pilot, he doesn't fit the cultural mould so he needs to be tarred and feathered but the right honourable chandler needs a hug and a free license.

The logic and reasoning astounds.
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Re: SAA Pilot Flies with fake ATPL for almost 20 years

Unread post by chunky » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:28 am

cage wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:13 am

He definitely should, as should everyone who lied they had a matric certificate or a degree be given one because they could do their jobs.
Let's just do away with qualifications, certification and regulation all together. Let's just leave those up to whether or not you can get away with not hurting anyone or if people can identify with you or think you're a "lekker oke".

That is a far better system.
As is the Norm Nowdays in our country, (the fromer jewel in the crown of Africa).

The drunk first officer got away with it because he was a 'lekker oke'. A drunk 'lekker oke' (With ATP) but a 'lekker oke non the less. Chandler has also been described as a 'lekker oke'.

The first officer got away with it because of interference, same reason why Chandler wont.

Glad my licenses are legit, and I passed all my exams without help. I also dont drink so perhaps things will start looking up for me soon. :lol:
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Re: SAA Pilot Flies with fake ATPL for almost 20 years

Unread post by cage » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:39 am

chunky wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:28 am
I also dont drink so perhaps things will start looking up for me soon. :lol:
Rules out a career with BA then ;)
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Re: SAA Pilot Flies with fake ATPL for almost 20 years

Unread post by jimdavis » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:42 am

cage wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:13 am
chunky wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:57 am
I wonder if 20 years experience as a FO with SAA, should he not be given an ATP on experience alone.
The strawmen are arriving thick and fast.
He definitely should, as should everyone who lied they had a matric certificate or a degree be given one because they could do their jobs.
Let's just do away with qualifications, certification and regulation all together. Let's just leave those up to whether or not you can get away with not hurting anyone or if people can identify with you or think you're a "lekker oke".

That is a far better system.

btw the FO would have been locked up and charged if there had been evidence to do so. That happened offshore where they are quite good at locking pilots up. Avcommers can't relate to that pilot, he doesn't fit the cultural mould so he needs to be tarred and feathered but the right honourable chandler needs a hug and a free license.
Absolutely right, most Avcommers, and most South Africans do not relate to a culture that considers is OK for a pilot to pitch up staggering drunk.

BTW the Pomms did lock him up until he was sober. Then he paxed back. They have no stomach for getting involved in the internal affairs of a foreign airline.

jim

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Re: SAA Pilot Flies with fake ATPL for almost 20 years

Unread post by Jack Welles » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:44 am

<<self-moderated- post removed>>

Sorry, mods/folks, I was so upset by the level of <<self-moderated>> that I reacted without thinking.

I'm done with this thread.
Last edited by Jack Welles on Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:58 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: SAA Pilot Flies with fake ATPL for almost 20 years

Unread post by chunky » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:44 am

cage wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:39 am
chunky wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:28 am
I also dont drink so perhaps things will start looking up for me soon. :lol:
Rules out a career with BA then ;)
And because I am a strawman... One step forward two steps back.
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Re: SAA Pilot Flies with fake ATPL for almost 20 years

Unread post by chunky » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:51 am

Jack Welles wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:44 am
It's the alternate career path for airline pilots, ek se!

You criminally forge your licence then fraudulently fly for X years on it without being caught and then you get a free ATPL! Yeeehaaa!

Much, much, much more convenient than the usual methods, especially if you're too dom to pass the exams!

HOWEVER, don't screw around on a radio transmission because then Avcommers will come down on you like a ton of bricks #-o
You could try getting a fraudulent pilot bursery from Denel, but you need to have struggle credentials for that.
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Re: SAA Pilot Flies with fake ATPL for almost 20 years

Unread post by cage » Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:05 am

jimdavis wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:42 am
They have no stomach for getting involved in the internal affairs of a foreign airline.
I am afraid you are very wrong.
When you are found drunk in a foreign country you have broken their laws, which is why you are arrested, initially under suspicion and then charged when proven.
They don't just send you home because it is inconvenient.
They have arrested many foreign pilots and charged a good number who have/are standing trial.
Those found guilty are locked up in the UK.
Not much googling is required to validate that.

Here is one recent example:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-46388829

The fellow you have taken a dislike to, while initially arrested, would seem to have been released without charge to return home (for whatever reasons).
Had there been sufficient evidence he would be returning to stand trial and would no doubt have been bulleted by the airline.
SAA can do many things, bypassing the UK judicial system isn't one.

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