Gyroplane Simulator

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Braam Hechter
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Gyroplane Simulator

Unread post by Braam Hechter » Tue Nov 24, 2015 8:23 am

Good Day All.

I have seen quite a lot of discussions around the training issue. Would having a gyro simulator available not save some training time and the gyro itself and also expose a student to emergencies that he would only be told about. One being rotor slap... It would also be worthwhile to place him in the sim and showing and teaching him to catch the nose on take off as well as directional control when the wheels leave the ground, and also showing the approach and flaring on landing.
There are a few gyro instructors but not many have been exposed to higher licenses or simulators. It may therefor be worthwhile to start working towards such equipment.
If one looks at the incidents that has happened in the commercial application of gyros, I wonder if this could have been prevented with flying a similar sortie in the sim. I know that it is worthwhile for the instructor to fly with the new employee and conduct an area familiarization, when starting a tasking. It would however seem that this exercise is to costly and new pilots are tasked to carry out flying without proper preparation.
Greetings and fly safely.
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Re: Gyroplane Simulator

Unread post by Learjet » Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:23 am

Braam, I think you raise a very pertinent question about the training value a simulator may offer.
I'm not an instructor so I cannot offer any instructional insight as to its value in training development, but the one area where I think there is a training gap (not necessarily the fault of instructors) is recognising the "behind the power curve" situation - and specifically the problem that identifying "where it lies" is not a definitive by numbers. As you know, one needs bum in seat time to learn to feel it, and I previously alluded to this in a post elsewhere as follows:
Gyro Vmin is Vermin. Flying instructors like to teach by the numbers. Gyro dragons don’t play by the numbers. There are no Vmin, Vs1 or Vno colour bands on a gyro’s ASI. There is no a stall warning indicator, buffeting, sloppy controls or even an accurate POH reference guide to indicate exactly where the Behind the Power Curve (BTPC) dragon is lying in wait…
The unwary pilot who inadvertently lets the airspeed lapse will either feel it in their backside if they have sufficient experience - or they’ll be oblivious to it until taking stock of the ASI – hopefully recognising and rectifying it immediately by easing the stick forward and putting the nose down and not, as evidenced by several accident reports, ending up with the puzzled pilot scratching their head wondering why 115% power with the throttle against the stops, glowing-turbo and desperately clutching the stick back didn’t keeping the gyro from mushing into the ground as a result of some imagined downdraft…
So I'm not sure that a simulator can simulate that "flying by the seat of your pants" awareness - and I think that's where a lot of the low time pilots (and even not such low time ) pilots have been nipped, and some times fatally bitten by the behind the power curve dragon. :?
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Re: Gyroplane Simulator

Unread post by Greg Vos » Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:26 am

Any devise or option that improves safty is worth consideration, however where would such a simulator be placed? one cannot expect a person who is learning to fly a Gyro for recreational purposes being forced to use it as part of the training syllabus IMO, because its location for people not nearby would suffer costs to get to it?

That being said the recent accidents regarding the spraying operation were IMO directly related to lack of experience in a Gyro copter, with the kids having VERY low hours, and as we say at the track there is no replacement for displacement, the same can be said about flying, no simulation can replace actual stick & seat of the pants time IMO. Had the victims of these recent accidents had some STICK time they would be at home for Christmas, and letting them have added say a further 10 hours in a Sim would IMO not have had that much more direct benefit.

The flight sim idea could have merit if the rules were changed by the authorities that may suggest that a new Pilot (comm/ ATPL or 200 hour Gyro pilot) who wishes to engage in commercial operations must have gone through some advanced training and that sim would then be used as part of his experience, just my thinking. Flying 200 - 500 hours for hours on end over vast coast lines also does little to bring home hard core experience in demanding situations so in many cases high time gyro pilots doing cross country flights could also lack experience when it comes down to complex flight manouvres?? the sim would add benefit here because it could be set up to try the student pilot in difficult situations? as an example how many Pilots flying on their own do a steep (hover turn) and do it using only 40-50% of the throttle? while honing their skills? I doubt many, because its so easy to take full throttle but in reality less throttle will simulate hot and high conditions...just saying, again Sim could add value in this case?

This could bring about its own problems because a man flying say an M16, that almost fly's itself and requires very little in the way of precise inputs could find if he is flying a Zen (simulator) that he is now over controlling, because as we know the lighter more modern designs in RH systems makes the machines have a very different feel on the stick, (not going into the issue of over balanced rotors in this discussion) but for illustrative purposes flying a R22 is super sensitive and unforgiving compared to say 206 Jet ranger or even a R44.
Now the pupe who is in the sim could find that he is not impressing his instructor because his control inputs are not smooth, that again will take an hour or two before the person becomes comfortable with new machine IE: Zen/ MTO versus say Magni M16

All said, having assess to a sim that can be programmed for emergencies and available can only add value
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Re: Gyroplane Simulator

Unread post by Braam Hechter » Tue Nov 24, 2015 5:02 pm

Gents,
you are both right. There is no replacement for bum in the seat time. My discussion and the use of a simulator is basically for the time before the student goes solo. As I said, teaches him to use the rudder and catch the nose. You can change the settings on the simulator to make the moments quicker or slower, rudder input more or less effective. By doing that the student will not know what to expect. By using the sim in this environment, it can be generic. Doesn't matter that a Magni or Xenon or Ela or MT-03 acts differently. That is the area that I see worth for a gyro sim. It would have served its purpose by hour 4. The student would have been exposed to the front seat and realised what the nose and rudder can do. He can fine tune this in the sim and then spend quality time in the gyro.

The simulator can also be used as a procedural trainer, how to do the start-up, taxi and pre-take-off checks. Maybe even the spin-up etc. One should not focus on using the gyro for continuation training but for helping the instructor initially.

Greetings
Braam
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Re: Gyroplane Simulator

Unread post by izak smit » Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:42 am

good post Learjet!
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Re: Gyroplane Simulator

Unread post by gyropilot » Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:24 am

Braam Hechter wrote:Gents,
you are both right. There is no replacement for bum in the seat time. My discussion and the use of a simulator is basically for the time before the student goes solo. As I said, teaches him to use the rudder and catch the nose. You can change the settings on the simulator to make the moments quicker or slower, rudder input more or less effective. By doing that the student will not know what to expect. By using the sim in this environment, it can be generic. Doesn't matter that a Magni or Xenon or Ela or MT-03 acts differently. That is the area that I see worth for a gyro sim. It would have served its purpose by hour 4. The student would have been exposed to the front seat and realised what the nose and rudder can do. He can fine tune this in the sim and then spend quality time in the gyro.

The simulator can also be used as a procedural trainer, how to do the start-up, taxi and pre-take-off checks. Maybe even the spin-up etc. One should not focus on using the gyro for continuation training but for helping the instructor initially.

Greetings
Braam
x country nav would be of great help - radio work / boundaries / calling points / approach & landing procedures etc.
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Re: Gyroplane Simulator

Unread post by Goffel » Wed Nov 25, 2015 5:52 pm

Does anybody have a gyro sim,or acess to one.
I think it wud be a fantastic idea
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Re: Gyroplane Simulator

Unread post by Greg Vos » Wed Nov 25, 2015 6:56 pm

Goffel wrote:Does anybody have a gyro sim,or acess to one.
I think it wud be a fantastic idea
:D there may be one on the horizon.... I hear it even has leather seats :?: I hear it has some other interesting features, but those are classified
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Re: Gyroplane Simulator

Unread post by polartrack » Sat Nov 28, 2015 4:50 pm

Gents

I'm not sure what your background is with regards to synthetic devices, but allow me to share my thoughts on this discussion.

The comment, "One should not focus on using the gyro for continuation training but for helping the instructor initially." is so far out of the ball park when it comes to simulation. I agree with the use on the device as a procedural trainer initially, but depending on the complexity of the sim, it should primarily be used for continuation training to aid the trainee, not instructor, in developing the competencies required in order to operate proficiently. Most accidents occur due to the lack of soft skills and a simulator is a fantastic tool to enhance these skills.

Does a simulator have a place in the gyro industry - I think if one can run it for a lot less than what an aircraft costs.....possibly, but to enhance soft skills, definitely. When it comes to a handling, the sim would have to be of a very high fidelity (big capital cost), thus it will probably cost more to operate than an the actual gyro and the experience gained from actually handling the aircraft cannot be replicated. To use the sim as a "look see" before a Nav, nothing beats good preparation.

Now to move gyro training forward in the next 10 years, basically to incorporate Evidence Based Training etc (this can be done on the aircraft and by using a sim) and until fuel costs us R20-25 a litre, I would avoid the capital costs of a simulator, try to get the archaic training programme changed and stick to the trusty aircraft.
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Re: Gyroplane Simulator

Unread post by Greg Vos » Sat Nov 28, 2015 8:35 pm

Read my comments .... Can a expensive rubber doll replace Taylor Swift :?:

Trust my primal comments auger well with you :D
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Re: Gyroplane Simulator

Unread post by gyronaut » Mon Nov 30, 2015 7:20 pm

If the simulator had active pitch, roll and yaw motion with multiple screens or a projection system and cost significantly less to own and operate than the real thing, put us down for one at our school please! Great idea and provided it doesn't cost what type certified sims cost to own and operate it will be a winner.
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Re: Gyroplane Simulator

Unread post by Braam Hechter » Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:36 pm

Hi Gyronaut.

Thanks for the mail. I think one can start looking past the multiple displays and the projection systems and go next generation by using 3D goggles. The requirements for space is just so much less. It also makes the complete rig very portable. One also do not need active roll, pitch and yaw, initially. If you have 5 Degrees of motion and the visual display supporting that, the mind gets baffled because a basic vertigo can be induced. This will help with the learning experience.

As far as I understand there are some wise people around that have done some serious homework. What you are requesting is basically step 5 in a process of 8 steps. Step 1 is having a full size cockpit with the relevant displays working. There are some people who have used X-plane software and did the mechanical link via an Arduino Software and board. This allows for artificial feedback to simulate the hand / feet feeling that you will get from sitting in the gyro. All the procedures can also be explained and tested. This is up to the pre-rotation and spin-up. The simulator can thus be used as a procedural trainer as well. The actions of a student can also be checked before sending him solo by inserting some failures in the system and seeing his reactions.

The sim should therefore be used in conjunction with the gyro. If a student has a problem, it can be remedied and corrected on the ground before the next flight. One should not limit the use of the sim.

Greetings

Braam Hechter
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Re: Gyroplane Simulator

Unread post by gyronaut » Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:37 am

Aaah, of course! 3D glasses will make the need for active feedback unneccessary yes!

Yes, it will have HUGE value in training. When can we expect a prototype Braam? Are you designing and building us something?

Look forward to it.

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Re: Gyroplane Simulator

Unread post by SP_Steve » Mon Dec 07, 2015 5:52 pm

Gyrocopter Simulator in the UK
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Re: Gyroplane Simulator

Unread post by Braam Hechter » Sat Feb 20, 2016 5:54 pm

Hi All.

It would be interesting to know what the instructors that have attended the Instructors Workshop at RAASA on Friday the 19 th of Feb has to say regarding the idea of having and using a gyro simulator. The Flight Simulation presentation would have left some thoughts. It would seem that going the simulator route may be a good idea after all. Most of the Part 141 flight schools are using a flight simulator in any case.

Enjoy the flying.

Braam Hechter

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