Drones Gauteng Highcourt

Unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV), commonly known as a drone and also referred to as an unpiloted aerial vehicle and a remotely piloted aircraft (RPA) by the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO), is an aircraft without a human pilot aboard.

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Re: Drones Gauteng Highcourt

Unread post by Christo » Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:47 pm

Current regulations and other requirements

Except under the South African Model Aircraft (SAMAA) codes, the current civil aviation legislation does not provide for certification, registration and/or operations of UAS in South Africa. It is also important to note that the Director of Civil Aviation (DCA) has not given any concession or approval to any organisation, individual, institution or government entity to operate UAS within the civil aviation airspace.
SAMAA has zero authoritative power correct? So according to this, since they do not operate in civil aviation space. I say fly away boys, take all the pictures you can get!
Due to the price increase in ammunition, do not expect a warning shot.

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Re: Drones Gauteng Highcourt

Unread post by Viking » Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:10 pm

The BIG issue here is weather the UAV is flown in- or out-of-line-of-sight.

Big difference in the rules applied...
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Re: Drones Gauteng Highcourt

Unread post by Superfueler » Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:47 am

Viking wrote:The BIG issue here is weather the UAV is flown in- or out-of-line-of-sight.

Big difference in the rules applied...
Hey Viking did you end up buying that ready made big toy you were going to check out which had half a million rand worth of sensors?
I note buying sensors is an interesting affair exporting from the US. You can only get the better stuff as a US citizen. (That for people doing custom UAV builds mission specific, like myself)
Why for example do they want to keep the FLIR L3 nanocore-1024 for US citizens or the 640 to non cits with state dept permission and the rest free for all.?
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Re: Drones Gauteng Highcourt

Unread post by Snitch » Wed Mar 05, 2014 1:08 am

Christo wrote:
Current regulations and other requirements

Except under the South African Model Aircraft (SAMAA) codes, the current civil aviation legislation does not provide for certification, registration and/or operations of UAS in South Africa. It is also important to note that the Director of Civil Aviation (DCA) has not given any concession or approval to any organisation, individual, institution or government entity to operate UAS within the civil aviation airspace.
SAMAA has zero authoritative power correct? So according to this, since they do not operate in civil aviation space. I say fly away boys, take all the pictures you can get!
They do operate in civil aviation airspace
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Re: Drones Gauteng Highcourt

Unread post by Roger » Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:11 am

See other recent discussions. Third link is an article on where the USA are on the topic:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=115522
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=115527
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=124974
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Re: Drones Gauteng Highcourt

Unread post by sting » Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:33 am

you can not break n LAW if there is no LAW on the UAV's yet.

how dificult is that to understand ?. CAA is still BUSY writing the LAW and Regulations. also still no LAW or Regualtions on what qulifications the pilot should have
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Re: Drones Gauteng Highcourt

Unread post by dany » Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:13 am

I think the problem goes far deeper then just about flying drones. Most use drones now for aerial photography and here lay a minefield of laws. One of our businesses is fully involve in aerial photography. After long discussions with our lawyers,we decided to go a total diffrent route with most of our operations that calls for elevated filming or still.s For the rest,we stick to helicopters and planes. Well,most of our gear is way to heavy and expensive for toys. The one camera and forward moving focal plane assembly weight about 180 kg anyway.
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Re: Drones Gauteng Highcourt

Unread post by heisan » Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:27 am

sting wrote:you can not break n LAW if there is no LAW on the UAV's yet.

how dificult is that to understand ?. CAA is still BUSY writing the LAW and Regulations. also still no LAW or Regualtions on what qulifications the pilot should have
The problem is that the law does exist. The civil aviation act covers all aircraft, from kites to A380s. Various types of aircraft (for example kites, model aircraft, parachutes, etc) have relaxed regulations, so that you can fly a kite in your local park, for example. But if there is not a specific set of relaxed regulations for your type of aircraft, then you still fall under the general regulations for aircraft.

The law is written in such a way that everything that flies (out of ground effect) is covered by the strictest set of regulations. But for some types of aircraft that meet very specific requirements there are specific exclusions from the stricter regulations.

For example:
Part 21 wrote:(2) This Part does not apply to –
(a)hang glider;
(b)paraglider;
(c)unmanned free balloon;
(d)captive balloon;
(e)kite;
(f)model aircraft;
(g)parachute;
(h)powered paraglider;
(i)rigid airship; or
(j)unmanned aerial vehicle.
Since 'UAS' or 'UAV' is not explicitly excluded from Part 21, Part 21 applies to them. Just about every section of the Civil Aviation Regulations starts with something like this (so, for example, you do not require a Type Certificate for a kite).

EDIT: :lol: :lol: :lol: What a crap example I chose... Didn't even notice option 'j' - so you don't need a Type Certificate for a UAV either. Just going to have a quick look at what other exclusions have crept in...

EDIT2: Seems they explicitly excluded from Part 21 (type certification), but specifically included in Part 24 (NTCA). No other relaxations of regulations. So to be legal under the current published regulations, they need to be registered as NTCA, with a Part 96 opeating certificate, and you need a CPL to fly them.
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Re: Drones Gauteng Highcourt

Unread post by Superfueler » Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:44 am

One of the problems is the definition of what a UAV/UAS actually is and how is commercial use defined as opposed to recreational /hobby use.
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Re: Drones Gauteng Highcourt

Unread post by heisan » Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:28 am

Superfueler wrote:One of the problems is the definition of what a UAV/UAS actually is and how is commercial use defined as opposed to recreational /hobby use.
Unmanned aircraft is defined here:
“model aircraft” means a heavier-than-air aircraft of limited dimensions, with or without a
propulsion device, unable to carry a human being and to be used for competition, sport or
recreational purposes rather than unmanned aeronautical vehicles (UAV) developed for
commercial or governmental, scientific, research or military purposes, and not exceeding the
specifications as set by the Federation Aeronautique Internationale as listed in Document SA-
CATS 24;
As to commercial/recreational, I would say that is fairly obvious. If it is done as part of a business, or if you charge money for it, it is commercial.
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Re: Drones Gauteng Highcourt

Unread post by farmpilot » Wed Mar 05, 2014 4:28 pm

Viking wrote:
farmpilot wrote:I think we are going around in circles. It's illegal in the UK, USA and most European countries so stands to reason it would be here too, until they write specific law. We can go on and on until we are blue in the face but it's all about insurance as they make the rules wrt payments.

You have no idea what you are talking about.
I operate UAVs commercially in Europe.

Apart from France, where the UAV pilot has to have an ultralight license, it is not that difficult to fly them AND insure them.
My big rig with LIDAR eqpt costs well over 1Mil ZAR, and the insurance company have no problems insuring it.
I know SA has rules and legislation in place regarding UAVs.
Google is your friend as well as a phone call to CAA.

Don't waffle on about things if you don't know the facts...
Really? So you can fly a drone for commercial work in Europe and the US without a licence or permission? <<Moderated - personal attack>> You CANNOT do it. You CANNOT legally fly any type of UAS in the US. You also clearly do not know anything about the film industry and the commercial use of Drones/UAS's. If you did you would know Universal and several other studios have banned their use in any an all production. Insurance have been bitten so many times they are referring claims. Each crash of a film drone is in the region of US$50K, six drones crashed on Fury Road.

I have spoken to the SACAA and they confirm my points, not sure which CAA you refer to.
You are right though, google is your friend and strangely it confirms my points.
http://www.unmannedtech.co.uk/regulations.html
http://www.missouridronejournalism.com/ ... the-globe/
http://www.uavs.org/aerial
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Re: Drones Gauteng Highcourt

Unread post by Hotspur » Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:44 pm

Interesting discussion, was wondering the same thing a while back........about three weeks ago our local rag in Milnerton ran a story on a young engineer who builds and flies drones as a hobby.....really impressive stuff. They published a few of the pics he's taken, Milnerton lagoon towards Table Mountain from around 500 feet etc. The real interesting ones were ships he's photographed from overhead in Table Bay. Wears a headset that give a realtime feed, says he has a range of 37km and flies all along the coast. My thoughts related to the safety aspect - seeing aeries low-level along the Blouberg / Table View coast is a regular feature in summer. The last thing you'd expect to see is a drone in your airspace? Judging from the photo they took of him it looks like he lives in the old part of Milnerton........right on the glideslope to Ysterplaat. Surely there must be some legislation that covers this?
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Re: Drones Gauteng Highcourt

Unread post by Viking » Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:17 pm

farmpilot wrote:
Viking wrote:
farmpilot wrote:I think we are going around in circles. It's illegal in the UK, USA and most European countries so stands to reason it would be here too, until they write specific law. We can go on and on until we are blue in the face but it's all about insurance as they make the rules wrt payments.

You have no idea what you are talking about.
I operate UAVs commercially in Europe.

Apart from France, where the UAV pilot has to have an ultralight license, it is not that difficult to fly them AND insure them.
My big rig with LIDAR eqpt costs well over 1Mil ZAR, and the insurance company have no problems insuring it.
I know SA has rules and legislation in place regarding UAVs.
Google is your friend as well as a phone call to CAA.

Don't waffle on about things if you don't know the facts...
Really? So you can fly a drone for commercial work in Europe and the US without a licence or permission? <<Moderated - personal attack>>You CANNOT do it. You CANNOT legally fly any type of UAS in the US. You also clearly do not know anything about the film industry and the commercial use of Drones/UAS's. If you did you would know Universal and several other studios have banned their use in any an all production. Insurance have been bitten so many times they are referring claims. Each crash of a film drone is in the region of US$50K, six drones crashed on Fury Road.

I have spoken to the SACAA and they confirm my points, not sure which CAA you refer to.
You are right though, google is your friend and strangely it confirms my points.
http://www.unmannedtech.co.uk/regulations.html
http://www.missouridronejournalism.com/ ... the-globe/
http://www.uavs.org/aerial

First of all, I never mentioned the US.
<<Moderated - personal attack>>
Secondly, I never mentioned that no permission is required, refer to am advice...
Sometimes, big birds can be fun!
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Re: Drones Gauteng Highcourt

Unread post by Viking » Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:23 pm

Superfueler wrote:
Viking wrote:The BIG issue here is weather the UAV is flown in- or out-of-line-of-sight.

Big difference in the rules applied...
Hey Viking did you end up buying that ready made big toy you were going to check out which had half a million rand worth of sensors?
I note buying sensors is an interesting affair exporting from the US. You can only get the better stuff as a US citizen. (That for people doing custom UAV builds mission specific, like myself)
Why for example do they want to keep the FLIR L3 nanocore-1024 for US citizens or the 640 to non cits with state dept permission and the rest free for all.?
Yes! We are already looking at one more!
We are testing some nice instruments in conjunction with SAAB aerospace and Linköping University.
A Swedish company, Hexagon, has just bought Aibotix. Hexagon owns Leica Geosystems as well.
There are some nice instruments being developed specifically for the under 7kg UAV market.

Some exiting times ahead:)
Sometimes, big birds can be fun!
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Re: Drones Gauteng Highcourt

Unread post by Superfueler » Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:40 am

heisan wrote:
Superfueler wrote:One of the problems is the definition of what a UAV/UAS actually is and how is commercial use defined as opposed to recreational /hobby use.
Unmanned aircraft is defined here:
“model aircraft” means a heavier-than-air aircraft of limited dimensions, with or without a
propulsion device, unable to carry a human being and to be used for competition, sport or
recreational purposes rather than unmanned aeronautical vehicles (UAV) developed for
commercial or governmental, scientific, research or military purposes, and not exceeding the
specifications as set by the Federation Aeronautique Internationale as listed in Document SA-
CATS 24;
As to commercial/recreational, I would say that is fairly obvious. If it is done as part of a business, or if you charge money for it, it is commercial.
It's too loose a definition with regard to UAV developed for research, scientific uses etc as there is sometimes commercial crossover and Model aircraft and UAV need some clearing up in definition. - main point in order to make legislation the regulatory bodies need to better define the dimensions, propulsion and range of what constitutes exactly a UAV as opposed to a model aircraft. The field is wide open.(pun intended)

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