DANGER!! DANGER! DRONE ALERT!! Pretoria area

Unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV), commonly known as a drone and also referred to as an unpiloted aerial vehicle and a remotely piloted aircraft (RPA) by the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO), is an aircraft without a human pilot aboard.

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Re: DANGER!! DANGER! DRONE ALERT!! Pretoria area

Unread post by Kill_Switch » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:34 pm

At the risk of persecution... * this is specifically aimed at the recreational use of drones

Why is the idea of a quadcopter ( Note non use of Drone) so scary to so many, do they really pose a risk more so than a 450-800 Heli or a 50 /100cc aeri. I can buy any of the latter without a license and I guarantee I will crash them much faster than the said quad, personally a flyaway 800 heli scares me a lot more than a little quad.
Why then should laws around quads be any different than the rest of the RC fleet on for that matter the safely aspects?

hear me out, the media has created an image of DJI phantoms and similar in the same light as the global hawk/ reaper( now that's a drone), and we often hear in media person XXX was killed in some remote country by a drone strike, so the name Drone is associated with fear however, in the case of a quad it's just another RC device at the end of the day and the operator determines the safety

Yes safety comes first, it should always that is why there is already regulation in place to govern how they must fly.
It is true that the mass proliferation of them in every toy store means that people are getting them without the understanding and safety aspects. But I really don't think mom and dad or even flying fan boys are not going out to buy them with the intent to commit crime (even if they are laws and litigation wouldn't stop them anyway.)

Or is it the fact that the quad now has the ability to take photos and video that worries us so much?
Do people really believe that quad's are being used to spy on you, ok maybe 1% out there need some fix by using this for that purpose, but the other 99% are most likely just enjoying the thrill of flying, getting the birds eye view not previously available.
I really couldn't care less about what you doing, if i wanted to spy I would use something much less intrusive.

Or is it as per the original post that they pose a significant threat to manned aviation, maybe, but to date there are no casualties as far as I have found. In fact in the same time there have been much more manned mid-air collisions that ended fatally. Even bird strikes seem more fatal. Many say its going to happen just wait and see I'm not convinced.. yet

So my question is how have drones come to receive the fear they currently hold and have we not lost the plot a little?
Are we so programmed to be worried about big-brother that we are killing the thrill of aviation in its newest tech form?
Should the focus not be ensuring the safety of all RC craft within the bounds of sensibility rather than the rampant ban the drone?

Or maybe I've lost the plot and my neighbour really wants to watch me clean the pool everyday and pickup the dog S#^t
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Re: DANGER!! DANGER! DRONE ALERT!! Pretoria area

Unread post by paulw » Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:54 am

Exactly the responses I expected....Nice seeing active debate here. Clearly there is room for improvement on the general public's behavior and that of RPAS operators(pilots)

I will be copying and quoting from this post if you guys don't mind...

W
I don't know what you have in mind, but I think Neville's close encounter and potentially other examples should be put into a Youtube video clip explaining the dangers, requirements and restrictions of where to fly and posted with keywords which new drone pilots will find easily.
Keywords like drone fun, drone great footage, etc.

I bet they all go and look for drone footage on Youtube.

@Neville/Jason, maybe you would like to include short interviews describing your experience? Or even create the whole video and post?
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Re: DANGER!! DANGER! DRONE ALERT!! Pretoria area

Unread post by Triaan » Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:31 am

I'm all for doing things legally BUT only if that would enable me to:

1: ACTUALLY be able to do my work.

2: The law works for me not against me.

Neither of this is the case with SA drone laws, not at all.

(now before i go on, all the happy go lucky's out there buying drones and just flying all over, that needs to be dealt with harshly, they need at least a hobby license but need to be dealt with on a completely different level than responsible pilots.)

How in your right mind will you fly where aircraft is taking off and landing, these are NOT drone pilots, they are just some bloke with a quad doing stupid things, do NOT associate DRONE pilots with them !!!!

And the following applies to operators and to those wanting to do things legally:

Let me tell you this, why does so many people hesitate to get licensed in SA ?? I'll tell you.

Besides the already mentioned a thousand times before endless needless paperwork, bankrupting fees, numb defying waiting periods, and all the chasing the mouse scenarios
to get a single job approved SHOULD YOU be the very CHOSEN one that survives to tell you've lived to actually made it.

Once you HAVE your south african drone license, you've just been so stupid to sign yourself up to get scr*wed, because now
you will be tracked and remember you are prohibited from doing your work when you're licensed. That folks is how SA drone law is willing to help you. The very regulations itself is forcing an outlaw situation.

As for one, you are still not legal to fly but instead you willingly advertising yourself to any numb nut wanting to twist any situation however legal into an illegal situation. (as get this, they can now track your every move so much easier)

Why should i then care what the guy next door says if i do things legally should one actually be again the CHOSEN one to hit the jackpot scenario where the legislation allows for such once in a lifetime chance operation ?

Because tom dick or harry won't let it go, cause endless frustration, and leave a rot stinking smell after each and every job done.

The regulations will have to change sooner rather than later to deal with this exploding revolution, becuase we need something that will actually help make it better for everyone on both sides, neglecting one party will only make things worse.
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Re: DANGER!! DANGER! DRONE ALERT!! Pretoria area

Unread post by Shepherd » Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:53 pm

Many good points made.

I have had a number of conversations behind closed doors about close encounters in places I (firstly as licensed RPL holder, and secondly someone with some basic common sense...) would never dare spool up my UAV to take a photo or try and "do a job."

The main issue I think that is leading to much frustration here at the AVCOM community would be that the UAV guys on here are all people trying to be legal and wanting to work within a working framework that benefits the safety of manned aviation as well as the ability to conduct a UAV business. Not by having no laws or framework or admin but most certainly not being managed the same way as if I were to purchase a Bell 412 and start conducting commercial flight operations. The current framework is very much a copy paste, with minor tweaks, of the framework that regulates a manned aircraft operation. Thus managing orange like they were apples, not the same thing as previously pointed out here.

However all examples, and I mean every single example/vented frustration brought up by manned aviation pilots in the community has NEVER included a legal ROC holder or even a RPL holder. Within this "drone/UAV" thread of the community, RPLs are constantly defending the technology and trying to position its value.

I mentioned in another thread that UAVs have opened up business opportunity that previously was never accessible to manned aviation and will continue relentlessly to push the boundaries of what is achievable.

Every UAV pilot in this community wants to work and do it safely.

The problem with educating the general public is that we cannot run a course on Carte Blanche every Sunday until the GA are up to date with it.
I consider myself a bit of an aviation nut, compared to the GA I am a professor of aviation. However, compared to someone that's been operating commercial aircraft their whole life... I am an idiot!

I loved my RPL ground school, I left knowing things about aviation that I never would have pieced together on my own as an aviation enthusiast since pretty much birth.

You cannot expect the GA to be at an educated level such as myself or any of the other RPLs in this community, it was out passion that led us here. But its the frustrations of a lack of understanding from the CAA and greated flying community at large that will drive most of us away as well.

It starts with working professionals whom are going to drive the knowledge. As it stands there is NO framework as far as I am concerned that promotes working professionals in the UAV field.

Its this simple, I have an RPL but to get a registered drone to even "log" official hours with it is nearly impossible. I dont live in PTA and dont have the money to jump through the many hoops to get it registered. There is a way but involves paying a "specialized" company to do it for me... So I can pump more money into something that should be so much simpler...

With all this red tape, for even the guys like myself that are aviation educated, how do you expect the GA whom aren't aviation enthusiasts to needle their way through this process. Its not going to happen and therefore its my opinion that we can whip the educating debate off the table.

I will use this analogy. If you aren't a mountain climber and someone drops you off at the base of Everest and you are told to get the best view in the world you need to climb that.. They are going to tell you to pick a finger and use the escalator on the side, take a easy ride up and take in the view...

Point is, current framework makes is incredibly hard for people to want to be educated...

We in South Africa are not the first to market with drones, thus we do not have to reinvent the wheel here. Take a few pages out of the books from those countries that have ironed out much of these teething issues for introducing drones into the aviation regulation. Many lessons already learned in AUS, Europe, USA, Canada, etc... Why are we years behind them in getting the basic foundation laid out.... :? :? :? :? :?

P.S. On a side note, I dont refer to them as "drones" because it has a negative connotation to it since "drones" are typically implying military use such as the Reaper.



I REALLY hope the CAA catches a wake up soon.... Predominantly not for my benefit to go out and conduct UAV operations but for the benefit of the manned aviation community and their safely. The more working UAV pilots we have out there, the more the word about safety will spread and proliferate knowledge about UAV operations and how they should be conducted safely.
The FEW legal operators out there currently hold things so close to their hearts it's not even funny!!! With tens of thousands of drones in SA already yet we ONLY have less than 20 legal operations... One must start to wonder how well Part 101 had been working for the last 3 years....

This has been the most constructive debate on here yet, thank you everyone for participating [-o<
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Re: DANGER!! DANGER! DRONE ALERT!! Pretoria area

Unread post by Piggy-Hawk » Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:44 pm

Drones can be a nuisance, like a fly hovering in your personal space.

If a drone flies too high, it might be a danger to the occasional aircraft flying by. If it flies too low there are privacy issues.

My neighbour's son doesn't fly his drone over my house, he flies it in to the yard, hovering it right in front of me.

I can choose to be upset and cause a scene, but I know that it's just a kid having some fun. All I do is acknowledge his "presence" with a polite wave and he's gone. Problem solved.

All he wants is a bit of attention.

It's not always necessary to spoil someone's fun like an old tannie with a nat broek.

If I feel violated in any way or if I feel that someone's life is put in danger or that any harm might be caused, I'll walk over and politely discuss the problem.

If you approach the situation tactfully the other party won't feel the need to lash out in defence.

In the end someone spent a lot of money to have 30 minutes of fun before the batteries run out. I can endure 30 minutes' nuisance.
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Re: DANGER!! DANGER! DRONE ALERT!! Pretoria area

Unread post by Wonko the Sane » Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:14 am

Piggy-Hawk wrote:Drones can be a nuisance, like a fly hovering in your personal space.

If a drone flies too high, it might be a danger to the occasional aircraft flying by. If it flies too low there are privacy issues.

My neighbour's son doesn't fly his drone over my house, he flies it in to the yard, hovering it right in front of me.

I can choose to be upset and cause a scene, but I know that it's just a kid having some fun. All I do is acknowledge his "presence" with a polite wave and he's gone. Problem solved.

All he wants is a bit of attention.

It's not always necessary to spoil someone's fun like an old tannie with a nat broek.

If I feel violated in any way or if I feel that someone's life is put in danger or that any harm might be caused, I'll walk over and politely discuss the problem.

If you approach the situation tactfully the other party won't feel the need to lash out in defence.

In the end someone spent a lot of money to have 30 minutes of fun before the batteries run out. I can endure 30 minutes' nuisance.
Thanks Piggy-Hawk

Why can't everybody have this attitude?


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My flying is not that bad....I've never left one up there..

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Re: DANGER!! DANGER! DRONE ALERT!! Pretoria area

Unread post by C2H5OH » Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:10 pm

As a kid we used to build insane kites and flew them in small parks around the hood - 7/10 times our "prototypes" crashed in a road...or become a permanent fixture on power lines - no one cared.

As teenagers, built horribly unreliable remote controlled gliders, and flew(crashed) them from rugby field next to the school - no one cared.

Today, a Dood hovers a 730gram Mavic 20m above the ground. Everyone looses their minds.
I'm a quad pilot, and im ok.
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Re: DANGER!! DANGER! DRONE ALERT!! Pretoria area

Unread post by Jack Welles » Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:00 am

I don't think kites and drones are easily compared. I can offhand think of a number of important differences.

Perhaps it's because the potential for harm is so much more than with a kite. Fly a kite into someone and it's likely a non-event. Fly a drone (or whatever you want to call it) into someone and those spinning blades could take out an eye or just slice them etc.

From the privacy aspect, again fly a kite and other than there's something at the end of a piece of string that's the end of it, a drone often comes equipped with a camera. That can make people feel uncomfortable especially when in a space (eg, like one's own backyard) where there is an expectation of privacy.

Also a kite is tethered by that piece of string and probably won't be going anywhere fast. A drone is moving free of such restrictions and everyone near it will be relying on the expertise of the pilot (or controller, if you prefer), which will usually be of an unknown standard.

Drones are also noisier than kites. Some people find that persistent buzzing extremely annoying.

By the way, I'm not anti-drone at all. Just think that the comparison with kites is unfortunate because it could mean underestimating potentially problematic issues.

In fact I started a drone thread which, sadly, hasn't attracted much attention because I, as a runner, find this particular model fascinating in its possibilities viewtopic.php?f=286&t=202555
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Re: DANGER!! DANGER! DRONE ALERT!! Pretoria area

Unread post by Kill_Switch » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:25 am

Jack Welles wrote: By the way, I'm not anti-drone at all. Just think that the comparison with kites is unfortunate because it could mean underestimating potentially problematic issues.
I agree maybe the comparison to a kite is a little off, but that's not what I get from the post, is it not more the issue within the current societal mentality that people get upset / offended by everything and because we are offended we want rights against it.

We seem to have lost the ability to avoid/uncouple from things that we don't like, or even just have constructive debates. We have moved into a time where if you offend someone that person takes it to cyberspace the world of trolls and keyboard warriors descend. Don't get me wrong you have the right to be offended, the question is does that right extend any further than that, can you impose your offence on anyone else simply because you don't agree.

What happened to agreeing to disagree, let each decide his own view. Today if you just dare to disagree you are publicly shamed and targeted.

[-X how dare I be gender specific and call my child a boy and dress him in blue and give him guns to play with [-X ** Rant off :oops:

Back to topic: Drones and the Danger Danger Drone alert

My dad had an interesting anecdote recently.
When smart phones were new, the whole private business and military worlds were in a security chaos.
Every person had a personal recording device with ability to take photos/geotags and steal intelligence or company secrets. Phones were locked in boxes and banned from entering safe zones.
However today go into any military base or corporate entity and see how many smart phones are used, did the treat go away, no, but the box system didn't stop those intent on stealing secrets, more so it harmed the effectiveness and morale.
Why, simple the 99% of people working in those environments were not interested in stealing secrets they did there jobs diligently and just wanted to be part of the smart phone revolution.
The same is probably true of drones, Can they steal private moments, yes, can they provide intelligence,yes.
Is that what the 99% want to use them for, no, its a toy/hobby or personal device that gives the masses aerial footage previously only reserved for government/ large financial organisation.
Hopefully will become no more problematic than that recording, photo taking, location tracking, communication device in your pocket.
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Re: DANGER!! DANGER! DRONE ALERT!! Pretoria area

Unread post by Jack Welles » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:42 am

Kill_Switch wrote: ...TRIMMED FOR BREVITY ...
Hopefully will become no more problematic than that recording, photo taking, location tracking, communication device in your pocket.
Well, FWIW, I agree with that sentiment wholeheartedly, but I don't think we can turn a blind eye to some of the issues that can arise, eg, the dangers inherent in sharing airspace with manned aircraft, the invasion of privacy when the pimpled youth with the raging hormones wants to take shots of the neighbour's wife suntanning au naturel in their enclosed back yard or the thing going out-of-control (untrained operator?) while over the heads of a bunch of kids clustered in a kindergarten.

I'm not gainsaying drones, just suggesting that there are issues specific to drones that need to be addressed, not just by CAA but by society as a whole.
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Re: DANGER!! DANGER! DRONE ALERT!! Pretoria area

Unread post by Kill_Switch » Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:19 am

I don't have answers, one can hope that with constructive debate maybe we could get to the as close as possible answer.

Agreed there must be rules, but they need to make sense to the common use/majority group else they will be ignored.

It is especially difficult when we as South Africans feel laws are there to be bent.
Drinking and driving( but its just 2 beers), Speeding (130km/h on the highway), Downloading copyright material (mass proliferation of movies music and games), Smoking in a car while transporting children.

Your question of how do we prevent said situations, How do we stop said pimply youth climbing on his roof or nearest apartment with a 500mm lens or using his cell phone to take pictures up women's dresses as the walk past. How do we prevent a unlicensed driver form ploughing through the same kindergartens wall. My view, carefully with well written rules/laws that are practical and enforceable - no easy task in the drone world. However some of these issues don't belong in a drone law, Privacy already has laws, reckless behaviour is already covered and has its subset of laws, many of the issues within drone use in my view already have constitutional backing, thus we should focus on there were it is lacking or overbearing.

Manned vs unmanned aviation yes lets put some rules in place, we must give drones a legal place/space to fly. the reality is we are not going to get less drones anytime soon in the air, conversely its going to get more con-jested.
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Re: DANGER!! DANGER! DRONE ALERT!! Pretoria area

Unread post by C2H5OH » Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:18 am

Jack Welles wrote: Perhaps it's because the potential for harm is so much more than with a kite. Fly a kite into someone and it's likely a non-event. Fly a drone (or whatever you want to call it) into someone and those spinning blades could take out an eye or just slice them etc.
*snip*
By the way, I'm not anti-drone at all. Just think that the comparison with kites is unfortunate because it could mean underestimating potentially problematic issues.
Buddy I'm going to stop you right there - when I was 17 I witnessed a bystander get impaled on the beach by a fiberglass rod in a kite.
I'm sure with a little googling you'd probably find dozens of incidents.

I've yet to hear of one person dying, being paralysed or landing in intensive care by a drone.

Although all things being equal people have died slipping on spoons. So give it time I guess.

Jack Welles wrote: Also a kite is tethered by that piece of string and probably won't be going anywhere fast. A drone is moving free of such restrictions and everyone near it will be relying on the expertise of the pilot (or controller, if you prefer), which will usually be of an unknown standard.
Kites dive & turn in gusts way faster than most drones - even a drone in a free fall.
And that kite was flown by a 15yr old. No one questioned his level of expertise or experience neither before or after that poor lady was put in the back of an ambulance ( I doubt she died but she was carried away on a stretcher with a nasty rod to the small of her neck) - its was just a 'fluke' or 'accident' not negligence or operator error. And yet after and while the potential for such incidents remain to this day it never spurred legislation.
Nearly 20 years later you can still walk on beaches today and find dozens of large kites being flown in close proximity to each other and people.

I've been lifted into the air by mine. If a sail doesn't hurt someone - a falling 90kg person could.
Jack Welles wrote: From the privacy aspect, again fly a kite and other than there's something at the end of a piece of string that's the end of it, a drone often comes equipped with a camera. That can make people feel uncomfortable especially when in a space (eg, like one's own backyard) where there is an expectation of privacy.
I find CCTV cameras on most corners around the neiborhood - obnoxious and intrusive - but can't really do much about it -
but its just something you get used to & forget about - its for our own protection apparently - but I carry all the protection I need on my hip. As comforting as it is to know that should something happen - they'll get a number plate to track down to the owner of a vehicle reported stolen over a month prior... I'll put my faith in something a little more immediate and close at hand. Of course should that time ever come - those CCTV camera might help or might even work against my legal defense.

Smart phones, smart phones everywhere - forget to keep up to date with Facebook's features and latest privacy settings - but fly all the way to Amsterdam to get smashed in a club - and your brothers 2 little kids back home still manage to find a picture auto tagged of you passed out on a couch wearing a woman's bra, a bong in one hand, and a penis drawn on your forehead.

Still I don't know whats in back yards that people want to hide - outdoor porn production? the best weed is grown indoors so I don't know.
Neighbor built a second story to his house - maybe it's in my right to ask them to paint over their windows as I could look out my office/spare room window earlier and see them watching tv up there. I need to keep remembering to close my blinds when I go to certain sites, or change the angle of my monitor - I'd rather have them think I'm a paranoid privacy nut than a perv after all.

The expectation of privacy in ones yard is a myth. Most municipal by laws prevent one from building 9 meter high boundary walls.
But they don't prevent neighbors building double (some prevent triple + ) story houses or climbing on their roofs.
Jack Welles wrote: Drones are also noisier than kites. Some people find that persistent buzzing extremely annoying.
All my neighbors have dogs, in fact I'm probably the only person in a 2km radius who doesn't own a boerbull, and they are a lot noisier at 3am than a drone during the day, but I don't post ridiculous questions on pet forums asking what are my legal rights and should it be ok for me to shoot my neighbors dogs if they keep me up - like actual questions on this very aviation forum if its OK to shoot down remotely piloted aircraft if they are as much as seen within a kilometer of their home.

I just accept the fact that some people see their affection and need for animal companionship as more important than my need for a full nights rest - But if I ever do have children which I love and care for so much, I'll make sure they have a nice warm blanket to sleep on outside during the winter - and one of those metal water bolls that make a horrible scraping sound as they drag them on the paving cause they empty. Then their crying and howling can keep everyone else up while I'm out parting in town. At least till a social worker removes them from my custody.


But going back to safety issue:
Jack Welles wrote:
... but I don't think we can turn a blind eye to some of the issues that can arise, eg, the dangers inherent in sharing airspace with manned aircraft, the invasion of privacy when the pimpled youth with the raging hormones wants to take shots of the neighbour's wife suntanning au naturel in their enclosed back yard or the thing going out-of-control (untrained operator?) while over the heads of a bunch of kids clustered in a kindergarten...
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Inappropriate comment removed. Please read our T&Cs regarding personal attacks.
As for sharing space with manned aviation - its pretty simple they shouldn't - the law already states flying a drone above 400f is illegal.
and although the range from which airfields are to be avoided are far too high at the moment in my opinion - it should still be something within reason. Perhaps even having decreasing altitudes the closer you are to an airfield - a common sense approach to keep out of glide paths. Helicopters are more at risk but even they themselves are rare at those altitudes - but common sense rules should be get out the air if you hear or see one coming and avoid operating anywhere near they are known to frequent.

But requiring an ROC or 100 other draconian laws isn't going to strengthen compliance to that first law among those who already know the rules. Its just increases non-compliance. "If I'm caught taking off period I'm in serious trouble anyway"
I find human nature is much more inclined to conformity and compliance than given credit - the secret is making it easy.
Playing on the fact that a guy who just dropped double digits on a fancy toy - probably wants to be seen using it - and if he can do that legally without driving all the way outside of civilization he'll stick to the more obvious and important rules.

If a person can legally fly in the park in his neighborhood - he's going to stand out in the open and obey the rules like not flying too high or over a highway or in peoples faces - People with cool toys want to show them off and be seen with them - so they'll be more inclined to follow certain rules - if the rules don't make him not want to be seen in the first place.

The problems are idiots who don't know or who don't care - in which case it would be more practical to simply ease regulations - but require any imported or locally manufactured drone to carry remote identifying technology and to be registered at point of sales - like a tv license with a summary copy of the rules printed on the back. This should at least discourage blatant offenders.

--


One of the most dangerous weapons in the modern history we have millions of - dozens often surrounding us at a time every day we leave the house - used by young and old - if every person in the world owned a gun - the number of deaths by firearms would pale in comparison to the number of deaths by the modern automobile. Yet drivers are not required to do class 4 medicals, nor log minimum hours, keep a log book, nor be retested by an examiner when renewing their license. Neither do they have to write no less than 7 exams. and perform 2 practicals (radio & flying) - Before even booking with the examiner. They are also not required to get a transport services license to drive their car to visit clients "for commercial purposes" or their bukkie if they're a garden service or courier.

In order to use their vehicle for work, they are not required belong to a company which has drawn up and submitted an operations manual for inspection and approval to the traffic department, and wait nearly 2 yrs at close of the cost of half a bar to get approval for their company to allow employees to drive. Nor is that company regularly audited or be willing to agree to surprise inspections or require their vehicles to be locked up and they keys stored with a responsible 'security officer' when not in use. Nor file a trip plan & ask permission from to local bus or taxi services ranks he may be driving near. And when he's driving he doesn't have to broadcast his position and intentions to every vehicle in the region. Preferably at regular intervals.

I had to do all that to take a photo of an a roof with a 1kg drone.
If we really want to get into the realm of whats more dangerous vs whats a potential hazard then lets import some broader perspective.

In closing - I wouldn't say I'm pro-drone. But I'm probably anti-people and their pettiness or draconian anti-competitive miles of red tape.
While some drone operators are charging more an hour than the cost to hire a crane for a day (and would love to keep the status quo re: legislation) the largest group of anti drone voices have been from helicopter pilots - not because light drones really present that much of a safety risk to them, at least not in the professional space, but because its eating into their livelihood - while many have adapted and are simply doing both [half the people I met while doing the RPL were already helicopter pilots] - but standing on the ground with a control is not as fun or prestigious is it & a simply to earn a salary was not why they became pilots in the first place.

I see it as a work safety tool that prevents myself or someone else having to climb up a really high ladders to do inspections,
or having to close one side of a road and inconvenience commuters while bringing in a crane to do what a drone can do in a minute.
I'd like to say to save on costs as well - but ironically with the cost of operating under an ROC - the drone is on par if not more expensive.
So perhaps I'm bias since for me the risks of using drones are outweighed by the very real day to day risk when not using one.
I'm a quad pilot, and im ok.
I drink all night and I fly all day.
When the works all done, and I get home.
I put up my feet and pull out the rum.
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Re: DANGER!! DANGER! DRONE ALERT!! Pretoria area

Unread post by Wonko the Sane » Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:13 am

C2H5OH wrote:
Jack Welles wrote: Perhaps it's because the potential for harm is so much more than with a kite. Fly a kite into someone and it's likely a non-event. Fly a drone (or whatever you want to call it) into someone and those spinning blades could take out an eye or just slice them etc.
*snip*
By the way, I'm not anti-drone at all. Just think that the comparison with kites is unfortunate because it could mean underestimating potentially problematic issues.
Buddy I'm going to stop you right there - when I was 17 I witnessed a bystander get impaled on the beach by a fiberglass rod in a kite.
I'm sure with a little googling you'd probably find dozens of incidents.

I've yet to hear of one person dying, being paralysed or landing in intensive care by a drone.

Although all things being equal people have died slipping on spoons. So give it time I guess.

Jack Welles wrote: Also a kite is tethered by that piece of string and probably won't be going anywhere fast. A drone is moving free of such restrictions and everyone near it will be relying on the expertise of the pilot (or controller, if you prefer), which will usually be of an unknown standard.
Kites dive & turn in gusts way faster than most drones - even a drone in a free fall.
And that kite was flown by a 15yr old. No one questioned his level of expertise or experience neither before or after that poor lady was put in the back of an ambulance ( I doubt she died but she was carried away on a stretcher with a nasty rod to the small of her neck) - its was just a 'fluke' or 'accident' not negligence or operator error. And yet after and while the potential for such incidents remain to this day it never spurred legislation.
Nearly 20 years later you can still walk on beaches today and find dozens of large kites being flown in close proximity to each other and people.

I've been lifted into the air by mine. If a sail doesn't hurt someone - a falling 90kg person could.
Jack Welles wrote: From the privacy aspect, again fly a kite and other than there's something at the end of a piece of string that's the end of it, a drone often comes equipped with a camera. That can make people feel uncomfortable especially when in a space (eg, like one's own backyard) where there is an expectation of privacy.
I find CCTV cameras on most corners around the neiborhood - obnoxious and intrusive - but can't really do much about it -
but its just something you get used to & forget about - its for our own protection apparently - but I carry all the protection I need on my hip. As comforting as it is to know that should something happen - they'll get a number plate to track down to the owner of a vehicle reported stolen over a month prior... I'll put my faith in something a little more immediate and close at hand. Of course should that time ever come - those CCTV camera might help or might even work against my legal defense.

Smart phones, smart phones everywhere - forget to keep up to date with Facebook's features and latest privacy settings - but fly all the way to Amsterdam to get smashed in a club - and your brothers 2 little kids back home still manage to find a picture auto tagged of you passed out on a couch wearing a woman's bra, a bong in one hand, and a penis drawn on your forehead.

Still I don't know whats in back yards that people want to hide - outdoor porn production? the best weed is grown indoors so I don't know.
Neighbor built a second story to his house - maybe it's in my right to ask them to paint over their windows as I could look out my office/spare room window earlier and see them watching tv up there. I need to keep remembering to close my blinds when I go to certain sites, or change the angle of my monitor - I'd rather have them think I'm a paranoid privacy nut than a perv after all.

The expectation of privacy in ones yard is a myth. Most municipal by laws prevent one from building 9 meter high boundary walls.
But they don't prevent neighbors building double (some prevent triple + ) story houses or climbing on their roofs.
Jack Welles wrote: Drones are also noisier than kites. Some people find that persistent buzzing extremely annoying.
All my neighbors have dogs, in fact I'm probably the only person in a 2km radius who doesn't own a boerbull, and they are a lot noisier at 3am than a drone during the day, but I don't post ridiculous questions on pet forums asking what are my legal rights and should it be ok for me to shoot my neighbors dogs if they keep me up - like actual questions on this very aviation forum if its OK to shoot down remotely piloted aircraft if they are as much as seen within a kilometer of their home.

I just accept the fact that some people see their affection and need for animal companionship as more important than my need for a full nights rest - But if I ever do have children which I love and care for so much, I'll make sure they have a nice warm blanket to sleep on outside during the winter - and one of those metal water bolls that make a horrible scraping sound as they drag them on the paving cause they empty. Then their crying and howling can keep everyone else up while I'm out parting in town. At least till a social worker removes them from my custody.


But going back to safety issue:
Jack Welles wrote:
... but I don't think we can turn a blind eye to some of the issues that can arise, eg, the dangers inherent in sharing airspace with manned aircraft, the invasion of privacy when the pimpled youth with the raging hormones wants to take shots of the neighbour's wife suntanning au naturel in their enclosed back yard or the thing going out-of-control (untrained operator?) while over the heads of a bunch of kids clustered in a kindergarten...
Moderators Message:
Inappropriate comment removed. Please read our T&Cs regarding personal attacks.

As for sharing space with manned aviation - its pretty simple they shouldn't - the law already states flying a drone above 400f is illegal.
and although the range from which airfields are to be avoided are far too high at the moment in my opinion - it should still be something within reason. Perhaps even having decreasing altitudes the closer you are to an airfield - a common sense approach to keep out of glide paths. Helicopters are more at risk but even they themselves are rare at those altitudes - but common sense rules should be get out the air if you hear or see one coming and avoid operating anywhere near they are known to frequent.

But requiring an ROC or 100 other draconian laws isn't going to strengthen compliance to that first law among those who already know the rules. Its just increases non-compliance. "If I'm caught taking off period I'm in serious trouble anyway"
I find human nature is much more inclined to conformity and compliance than given credit - the secret is making it easy.
Playing on the fact that a guy who just dropped double digits on a fancy toy - probably wants to be seen using it - and if he can do that legally without driving all the way outside of civilization he'll stick to the more obvious and important rules.

If a person can legally fly in the park in his neighborhood - he's going to stand out in the open and obey the rules like not flying too high or over a highway or in peoples faces - People with cool toys want to show them off and be seen with them - so they'll be more inclined to follow certain rules - if the rules don't make him not want to be seen in the first place.

The problems are idiots who don't know or who don't care - in which case it would be more practical to simply ease regulations - but require any imported or locally manufactured drone to carry remote identifying technology and to be registered at point of sales - like a tv license with a summary copy of the rules printed on the back. This should at least discourage blatant offenders.

--


One of the most dangerous weapons in the modern history we have millions of - dozens often surrounding us at a time every day we leave the house - used by young and old - if every person in the world owned a gun - the number of deaths by firearms would pale in comparison to the number of deaths by the modern automobile. Yet drivers are not required to do class 4 medicals, nor log minimum hours, keep a log book, nor be retested by an examiner when renewing their license. Neither do they have to write no less than 7 exams. and perform 2 practicals (radio & flying) - Before even booking with the examiner. They are also not required to get a transport services license to drive their car to visit clients "for commercial purposes" or their bukkie if they're a garden service or courier.

In order to use their vehicle for work, they are not required belong to a company which has drawn up and submitted an operations manual for inspection and approval to the traffic department, and wait nearly 2 yrs at close of the cost of half a bar to get approval for their company to allow employees to drive. Nor is that company regularly audited or be willing to agree to surprise inspections or require their vehicles to be locked up and they keys stored with a responsible 'security officer' when not in use. Nor file a trip plan & ask permission from to local bus or taxi services ranks he may be driving near. And when he's driving he doesn't have to broadcast his position and intentions to every vehicle in the region. Preferably at regular intervals.

I had to do all that to take a photo of an a roof with a 1kg drone.
If we really want to get into the realm of whats more dangerous vs whats a potential hazard then lets import some broader perspective.

In closing - I wouldn't say I'm pro-drone. But I'm probably anti-people and their pettiness or draconian anti-competitive miles of red tape.
While some drone operators are charging more an hour than the cost to hire a crane for a day (and would love to keep the status quo re: legislation) the largest group of anti drone voices have been from helicopter pilots - not because light drones really present that much of a safety risk to them, at least not in the professional space, but because its eating into their livelihood - while many have adapted and are simply doing both [half the people I met while doing the RPL were already helicopter pilots] - but standing on the ground with a control is not as fun or prestigious is it & a simply to earn a salary was not why they became pilots in the first place.

I see it as a work safety tool that prevents myself or someone else having to climb up a really high ladders to do inspections,
or having to close one side of a road and inconvenience commuters while bringing in a crane to do what a drone can do in a minute.
I'd like to say to save on costs as well - but ironically with the cost of operating under an ROC - the drone is on par if not more expensive.
So perhaps I'm bias since for me the risks of using drones are outweighed by the very real day to day risk when not using one.

Hi Ethanol

Please P.M me... I enjoyed your response


W
I don't care what you think of me! Unless you think I'm awesome - then you're right, carry on!

My flying is not that bad....I've never left one up there..

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Re: DANGER!! DANGER! DRONE ALERT!! Pretoria area

Unread post by C2H5OH » Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:10 am

That wasn't a personal attack. Wasn't even an attack ... Now its going to look all shady with that message out of context 8-[

Well leaving the first part out - I said teens have internet anyway, and its difficult to fly a control with one hand.
I'm a quad pilot, and im ok.
I drink all night and I fly all day.
When the works all done, and I get home.
I put up my feet and pull out the rum.
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Re: DANGER!! DANGER! DRONE ALERT!! Pretoria area

Unread post by heisan » Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:37 am

Just a few minor corrections:
C2H5OH wrote:...And yet after and while the potential for such incidents remain to this day it never spurred legislation.
Nearly 20 years later you can still walk on beaches today and find dozens of large kites being flown in close proximity to each other and people.
Kites are in fact regulated:
Operation of line-controlled kites
94.06.10 Line-controlled kites are exempted from these regulations –
(a) except from regulation 94.05.1; and
(b) provided that no line-controlled kite shall be flown –
(i) higher than 150 feet above the surface;
(ii) from or above a public road; or
(iii) on the approaches to any aerodrome licensed or approved in terms of Part 139 of these regulations, unless with the prior approval of the Director and on conditions determined by him or her.
and
94.05.1 (1) Unless granted permission by the Director or the organisation designated for the purpose in terms of Part 149, as the case may be, on a case-by-case basis, a non-type certificated aircraft may not be flown –
(a) by night;
(b) in meteorological conditions less than those prescribed as suitable for flight under VFR;
(c) within controlled airspace, unless cleared by and on conditions prescribed by ATC; or
(d) within 5 NM from the aerodrome reference point of an aerodrome, licensed or approved in terms of Part 139 of these regulations and situated in Class G airspace, unless established unmanned aerodrome procedures for the particular aerodrome can be adhered to; or
(e) unless unavoidable, over built up areas and open-air assemblies of persons except for the purpose of take-off, transit and landing.
(2) Notwithstanding the provisions of sub-regulation (1) a non-type certificated aircraft may operate under IFR conditions by day if it has been granted permission in terms of Regulation 24.02.3(3) of these Regulations.
3) Notwithstanding the provisions of sub-regulation (1)(e), paragliders and hangliders, and powered versions thereof, may fly over built up areas provided they are foot-launched.
... not sure if a busy beach would count as an 'open air assembly of persons' - but it may just be that flying a kite on aa busy beach is actually illegal.
As for sharing space with manned aviation - its pretty simple they shouldn't - the law already states flying a drone above 400f is illegal.
Actually, for unlicensed operators, that is 150', or below the highest obstacle in a 300m radius.
Justin Schoeman

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