DANGER!! DANGER! DRONE ALERT!! Pretoria area

Unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV), commonly known as a drone and also referred to as an unpiloted aerial vehicle and a remotely piloted aircraft (RPA) by the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO), is an aircraft without a human pilot aboard.

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Shepherd
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Re: DANGER!! DANGER! DRONE ALERT!! Pretoria area

Unread post by Shepherd » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:50 am

heisan wrote:Just a few minor corrections:
C2H5OH wrote:...And yet after and while the potential for such incidents remain to this day it never spurred legislation.
Nearly 20 years later you can still walk on beaches today and find dozens of large kites being flown in close proximity to each other and people.
Kites are in fact regulated:
Operation of line-controlled kites
94.06.10 Line-controlled kites are exempted from these regulations –
(a) except from regulation 94.05.1; and
(b) provided that no line-controlled kite shall be flown –
(i) higher than 150 feet above the surface;
(ii) from or above a public road; or
(iii) on the approaches to any aerodrome licensed or approved in terms of Part 139 of these regulations, unless with the prior approval of the Director and on conditions determined by him or her.
and
94.05.1 (1) Unless granted permission by the Director or the organisation designated for the purpose in terms of Part 149, as the case may be, on a case-by-case basis, a non-type certificated aircraft may not be flown –
(a) by night;
(b) in meteorological conditions less than those prescribed as suitable for flight under VFR;
(c) within controlled airspace, unless cleared by and on conditions prescribed by ATC; or
(d) within 5 NM from the aerodrome reference point of an aerodrome, licensed or approved in terms of Part 139 of these regulations and situated in Class G airspace, unless established unmanned aerodrome procedures for the particular aerodrome can be adhered to; or
(e) unless unavoidable, over built up areas and open-air assemblies of persons except for the purpose of take-off, transit and landing.
(2) Notwithstanding the provisions of sub-regulation (1) a non-type certificated aircraft may operate under IFR conditions by day if it has been granted permission in terms of Regulation 24.02.3(3) of these Regulations.
3) Notwithstanding the provisions of sub-regulation (1)(e), paragliders and hangliders, and powered versions thereof, may fly over built up areas provided they are foot-launched.
... not sure if a busy beach would count as an 'open air assembly of persons' - but it may just be that flying a kite on aa busy beach is actually illegal.
As for sharing space with manned aviation - its pretty simple they shouldn't - the law already states flying a drone above 400f is illegal.
Actually, for unlicensed operators, that is 150', or below the highest obstacle in a 300m radius.

These items about kites are actually pieces of legislation I have NEVER seen or heard of in my life, and thats with living on the beach for most of my life. Mostly because flying a kite does not commercially affect long existing way of doing things, despite it being archaic and outdated in some ways.... Essentially its not poking the giant sleeping bear so to speak...

I can walk into a store, without a license buy a kite and start flying it. Although same as with drones, not very well to begin with and build up skills to be a good flyer and learn some hard lessons.

However the amount of kitesurfers I see in and around Virginia airport flying is staggering, but no threat to an industry thus no major media around the breach of legislation and publicly debated topic that sends people in two very distinctive directions...

Just my 2 cents...

I have voiced my opinion quite extensively previously on this thread before. But again, I am for the need of the Law, but not the way it is in any way shape or form.. except for training, I agree this is very good and needed hands-on experience about safety and professionalism to actually piloting a UAV, nothing to do with business side of UAVs... Just pure safety, airmanship and professionalism.
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Re: DANGER!! DANGER! DRONE ALERT!! Pretoria area

Unread post by C2H5OH » Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:32 am

Shepherd wrote:
*snip*

It starts with working professionals whom are going to drive the knowledge. As it stands there is NO framework as far as I am concerned that promotes working professionals in the UAV field.

*snip*

With all this red tape, for even the guys like myself that are aviation educated, how do you expect the GA whom aren't aviation enthusiasts to needle their way through this process. Its not going to happen and therefore its my opinion that we can whip the educating debate off the table.

*snip*

Point is, current framework makes is incredibly hard for people to want to be educated...

We in South Africa are not the first to market with drones, thus we do not have to reinvent the wheel here. Take a few pages out of the books from those countries that have ironed out much of these teething issues for introducing drones into the aviation regulation. Many lessons already learned in AUS, Europe, USA, Canada, etc... Why are we years behind them in getting the basic foundation laid out.... :? :? :? :? :?

*snip*


I REALLY hope the CAA catches a wake up soon.... Predominantly not for my benefit to go out and conduct UAV operations but for the benefit of the manned aviation community and their safely. The more working UAV pilots we have out there, the more the word about safety will spread and proliferate knowledge about UAV operations and how they should be conducted safely.
The FEW legal operators out there currently hold things so close to their hearts it's not even funny!!! With tens of thousands of drones in SA already yet we ONLY have less than 20 legal operations... One must start to wonder how well Part 101 had been working for the last 3 years....

This has been the most constructive debate on here yet, thank you everyone for participating [-o<
"As it stands there is NO framework as far as I am concerned that promotes working professionals in the UAV field. "

"The FEW legal operators out there currently hold things so close to their hearts it's not even funny!"


You are echoing the frustration of every wishful operator out there.

There is in-fact a UAV lobby group: the CUAASA who meet with and lobby the SACAA.
They HAVE been doing good works, so I don't want to take credit away from them.
But there is also an elephant in the room that needs to be addressed: when you look at their member organisations - they're the largest existing UAV operators who hold ROCs, and Firms who profit from compiling and processing ROC applications as a service, and providing legal consulting to ROC operations, along with 1 or 2 UAV manufacturers.

Excluding the latter group (manufacturer & distributors) & Taking into account that current legislation creates a very monopolistic environment for existing ROC holders: Ask yourself what benefit would it be for these companies to lobby towards making the entry to market and gaining ROC status any easier for others?

They have been been lobbying against the ASL (Air service license from the department of transport requirement),
and the speed at which the ROC process is managed.
But I feel more needs to be done towards simplifying or reducing the operational requirements placed on running an ROC - which is extremely over administrative, uneconomical and impractical for a small operator. Or the cost of inspections / registering drones etc.

Furthermore the CUAASA is a child organisation of the much larger CAASA which represents the interest of commercial manned aviation.
As I mentioned before UAV's are seen as a threat by replacing roles traditionally in the domain of helicopter and fixed wing pilots
(geological surveys, mapping, agriculture, game management, filming).
Anything the CUAASA does to make the entry to market easy for UAV pilots - could threaten CAASA members livelihood.
As long as number of UAV operations is artificially limited - both pricing and market share can be maintained in a cabal.
But an explosion of UAV operators threatens the profits of both existing ROC holders and AOC holders.
So from my perspective of these two partner organisation's members - while some interests do align - matters of aviation safety & both groups wanting a professional, safe, and regulated industry. They also have substantial conflicts of interest.

I've heard along the grapevine the SACAA may be proposing to add to the requirements that regular maintenance & inspections should be performed on UAVs by registered and qualified 3rd party UAV maintenance companies. Should this go happen, it will no longer be enough for an ROC holder to have their own technical staff member responsible for maintenance, but will have to have another [registered with the SACAA] company perform regular maintenance inspections every number of hours. (as with AOC's aircraft)
Larger ROC holders who can afford to setup their own sister companies to do this, could benefit - adding more cost to discourage smaller operators, and also create a new revenue stream. It may not be in their interest to oppose this proposal.

One of those operators on the member list [name redacted - so I don't get moderated], has been vocal in the media supporting the legislation the way it is - but instead says the SACAA is not doing enough to clamp down on illegal operations.

Of course that would be their position - because the current ROC requirements create a monopoly allowing them to charge the 20k an hour they do. Instead of the 2k illegal operators are charging. Any company which needs to employ the services of a legitimate operator and simply cannot risk the liabilities of using unregistered providers has no choice but to pay that, or alternatively hire a helicopter for close to the same cost.

Now I'm not saying hopefuls and those on the outside should not support the CUAASA, I'm actually recommending the opposite.
We need as many a balanced and diverse group of stakeholders to join the CUAASA and to attend the workshops as possible,
to insure the entire industry, & those still wishing to enter it, have their interests represented.
Those with an RPL or have an interest in the industry should join as individuals and actively represent their interests.
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Re: DANGER!! DANGER! DRONE ALERT!! Pretoria area

Unread post by Segg » Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:43 am

I see today a video has been posted showing someone operate their drone in the FAWB CTR around the Roodeplaat Dam Wall [-X

https://www.facebook.com/stormreportsa/ ... 1952856323
what goes around, comes around.
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Re: DANGER!! DANGER! DRONE ALERT!! Pretoria area

Unread post by farmpilot » Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:30 pm

So when the legal, fully licenced operators crash their drones on paying jobs, are they legally required to report the incident/accident to the CAA like full size?
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Re: DANGER!! DANGER! DRONE ALERT!! Pretoria area

Unread post by paulw » Sat Mar 24, 2018 4:03 pm

Segg wrote:I see today a video has been posted showing someone operate their drone in the FAWB CTR around the Roodeplaat Dam Wall [-X

https://www.facebook.com/stormreportsa/ ... 1952856323
There are often helicopters doing low level ops there. I can imagine a dam like this will attract drones and then one day.....

What altitude do you think the drone was?
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Re: DANGER!! DANGER! DRONE ALERT!! Pretoria area

Unread post by Segg » Sat Mar 24, 2018 4:53 pm

paulw wrote:
Segg wrote:I see today a video has been posted showing someone operate their drone in the FAWB CTR around the Roodeplaat Dam Wall [-X

https://www.facebook.com/stormreportsa/ ... 1952856323
There are often helicopters doing low level ops there. I can imagine a dam like this will attract drones and then one day.....

What altitude do you think the drone was?
Can't say for sure, but looks about right for a midair if entering/exiting the CTR.... Definitely not the lowest I've seen a drone

I've seen some drones take similar footage around the hartbeespoort dam wall as well - and that's an area I dare not enter on weekends with half the traffic in special rules west congregating there

But this drone footage from altitude inside a CTR at a landmark is just blatant disregard for safety and rules :evil:
what goes around, comes around.
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Re: DANGER!! DANGER! DRONE ALERT!! Pretoria area

Unread post by iPilot » Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:33 am

Applicable to original post:
One breaks the law when you drive over the speed limit.... Should the government also then cap car sales in SA?...Ridiculous to say SACAA should cap Drone sales... That's taking bread away from a family...

I fully agree by abiding the law, yet as per previous post, rather use the situation and educate such a pilot.

All Aviation enthusiasts should stand together rather than be against each other....
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Re: DANGER!! DANGER! DRONE ALERT!! Pretoria area

Unread post by skytrooper » Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:27 pm

Agree selling super cars is also legal.
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Re: DANGER!! DANGER! DRONE ALERT!! Pretoria area

Unread post by Induna » Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:49 am

farmpilot wrote:So when the legal, fully licenced operators crash their drones on paying jobs, are they legally required to report the incident/accident to the CAA like full size?
yes. that means the drone will also have a registered callsign, then it has to be reported as it is an aircraft registered on the CAA Aircraft register
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Re: DANGER!! DANGER! DRONE ALERT!! Pretoria area

Unread post by farmpilot » Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:02 am

Induna wrote:
farmpilot wrote:So when the legal, fully licenced operators crash their drones on paying jobs, are they legally required to report the incident/accident to the CAA like full size?
yes. that means the drone will also have a registered callsign, then it has to be reported as it is an aircraft registered on the CAA Aircraft register
Thank you, very interesting. There have been several incidents/accidents with drones but yet no CAA reports (I know they take awhile to come out). So it would seem, on the face of it, the few legal drone operators are not recording their accidents/incidents as they should.
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Re: DANGER!! DANGER! DRONE ALERT!! Pretoria area

Unread post by C2H5OH » Wed May 09, 2018 6:17 pm

farmpilot wrote:
Induna wrote:
farmpilot wrote:So when the legal, fully licenced operators crash their drones on paying jobs, are they legally required to report the incident/accident to the CAA like full size?
yes. that means the drone will also have a registered callsign, then it has to be reported as it is an aircraft registered on the CAA Aircraft register
Thank you, very interesting. There have been several incidents/accidents with drones but yet no CAA reports (I know they take awhile to come out). So it would seem, on the face of it, the few legal drone operators are not recording their accidents/incidents as they should.
Let me demystify that, as I've heard the practice discussed before:

From what I believe - If an incident is reported, the aircraft (drone) is grounded (even if undamaged) till it has been inspected by the CAA. If its undergone any repairs / part replacements, (even if no accident / incident involved) its supposed to be grounded till it has been inspected by the CAA. Or if its replaced, the new one must be registered and inspected by the CAA.

In either event the inspector charges by the hour. If you're outside of Pretoria (like CPT/Durban), you either have to drive/fly up to them to have it inspected, Or they fly down to you at your cost plus a minimum 8 hours charge just for the travel. Plus the fee's of registering a new drone to the ROC.

Ergo in events which no-one was hurt or no severe property damage besides the drone itself.
In the case of phantoms and the like,that process costs more than buying spare identical drones off the shelf (have one registered and inspected) - then when the 'active' one fails or starts showing signs of wear - swap the serial plates, toss the old one in the bin, and pretend nothing happened.

The economic comparison isn't the same when damaging or maintaining a built to order million rand aircraft.
while many consumer & professional drones alike are factory built identical in hundreds of thousands and relatively cheap/disposable.
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Re: DANGER!! DANGER! DRONE ALERT!! Pretoria area

Unread post by Induna » Wed May 09, 2018 7:23 pm

I had my aircraft inspected for ATF and CAA came down to Cape Town. I did not pay for their travel. I only paid the hourly fee for as long as the inspection took.

There has been debate over “no damage to propery or injuries”, but fact of the matter is it must be reported. Many people were heavily fined because of non-reporting...

There is no difference between a full size aircraft or drone that is on the aircraft registry, when it comes to incident reporting.

Maybe Goffel can assist in clarifying?

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Re: DANGER!! DANGER! DRONE ALERT!! Pretoria area

Unread post by C2H5OH » Wed May 09, 2018 8:44 pm

Induna wrote:I had my aircraft inspected for ATF and CAA came down to Cape Town. I did not pay for their travel. I only paid the hourly fee for as long as the inspection took.

There has been debate over “no damage to propery or injuries”, but fact of the matter is it must be reported. Many people were heavily fined because of non-reporting...

There is no difference between a full size aircraft or drone that is on the aircraft registry, when it comes to incident reporting.
Probably works out if we wait till they down doing the rounds I guess. But in your case was it a drone or an actual aircraft?
(But I'm only quoting what I was told I'd have to do - if I don't come to them, I'd pay a minimum 8-hour charge for them to come to me. Simply to check I have a fireproof identification plate glued in the battery compartment, call-sign sticker on top, and a strobe light from ebay cable tied to the leg.)

I agree the rules ARE the same... what I was implying is that some may be skirting them as the costs of doing are somewhat unfavorable on economy of scale when considering a drone is bound to fall out the sky more often than an aircraft, has a far shorter service life, and less chance of killing the pilot (occupants) when it does. While the replacement / insured cost of a drone can be less than the cost to have it inspected / registered. - so unlike an aircraft, it makes economic sense to only have 3rd party insurance - And not report incidents (or claim from insurance) for incidents where only the drone was damaged (or even minor property damage).

At least that's true with the cheaper consumer & professional ones from DJI & Parrot - the camara's (especially thermal ones) being the most expensive component which may be salvageable. And while I've never seen operators using pocket spinners like Mavics, if they did for light work, those things are practically disposable. They're all mass produced, and if one passes inspection with the required stickers and strobe clipped on, no reason to think the half dozen identical spares you purchased wouldn't.
Enterprise / custom UAVs are a different story.
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Re: DANGER!! DANGER! DRONE ALERT!! Pretoria area

Unread post by flyingdutchman77 » Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:38 pm

I think the whole fuss about drones is jealousy.

Jealousy makes you nasty!!!!!!!!
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Re: DANGER!! DANGER! DRONE ALERT!! Pretoria area

Unread post by Wonko the Sane » Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:54 pm

flyingdutchman77 wrote:I think the whole fuss about drones is jealousy.

Jealousy makes you nasty!!!!!!!!
Welcome to Avcom...

With an opening statement like that, you must have a big one....


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