I want to understand the logical reasons for an ROC?

Unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV), commonly known as a drone and also referred to as an unpiloted aerial vehicle and a remotely piloted aircraft (RPA) by the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO), is an aircraft without a human pilot aboard.

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Re: I want to understand the logical reasons for an ROC?

Unread post by zander » Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:57 pm

fourwings wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:36 pm
zander wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:32 pm
Multirotordronepilot wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:17 pm
Honest advice, listen less to your friend or specific person. based on what he told you or rather the fact that you still have questions, hy praat kak met you or is just trying to impress you.

Take what Heisan said more seriously , he is absolutely correct in his opening statement.
What a joke. Rather listen to your Friend. ROC does make no sense you are absolutely right.

The only reason it is in place is so it can be used as a cash cow by the sour old greedy pioneers of the industry losing their greedy part of the cake and because of the corrupted bureaucracy, who do you think swayed the decision in their favour in the first place ?
At least I’m not being naive in this. I am yet to be given a SOLID reason for the existence of a ROC.

I agree that this is a cash cow. I’ve heard stories of the quotes given to companies for consultation on ROC manuals in excess of R50k per month for 6months.
There you have it =D> That is one way out of many i CAN list on how they manipulate this corrupted system they helped to create.
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Re: I want to understand the logical reasons for an ROC?

Unread post by fourwings » Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:25 pm

Thank you for posting the ASL act but that doesn’t give LOGICAL reason for enforcing a ROC.

There is still no LOGICAL reasoning for the existence of the ROC.

Ok so there is an Act saying there must be a certificate. But that doesn’t make the Act logical or correct.

The point of this thread is to understand the logical reasoning behind said Act and ROC.

AGAIN I say, these certificates are understandable for companies that might be offering chartering services or requiring to fly higher than a certain altitude but small drone operators should not fall under the same laws. The RPL should still be sufficient enough without the ROC for small drone operators. Isn’t that why we train for the license in the first place? To become safe and efficient in the skies? How does the ROC make the RPL better?

Posting the Act doesn’t just give rise to logical reason.
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Re: I want to understand the logical reasons for an ROC?

Unread post by heisan » Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:46 pm

fourwings wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:25 pm
Thank you for posting the ASL act but that doesn’t give LOGICAL reason for enforcing a ROC.

There is still no LOGICAL reasoning for the existence of the ROC.

Ok so there is an Act saying there must be a certificate. But that doesn’t make the Act logical or correct.

The point of this thread is to understand the logical reasoning behind said Act and ROC.

AGAIN I say, these certificates are understandable for companies that might be offering chartering services or requiring to fly higher than a certain altitude but small drone operators should not fall under the same laws. The RPL should still be sufficient enough without the ROC for small drone operators. Isn’t that why we train for the license in the first place? To become safe and efficient in the skies? How does the ROC make the RPL better?

Posting the Act doesn’t just give rise to logical reason.
The logical reason is that you can either have commercial drone operations now with an ROC, or in 10 years time when they finally manage to get the Act amended. Take your pick.
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Re: I want to understand the logical reasons for an ROC?

Unread post by fourwings » Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:12 pm

If you think that is actually a reason for it’s existence then you’re sorely mistaken.

That is just another “just because” reason.

“There is an a ROC cause there is an Act!”

Riiigght!
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Re: I want to understand the logical reasons for an ROC?

Unread post by heisan » Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:25 pm

fourwings wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:12 pm
If you think that is actually a reason for it’s existence then you’re sorely mistaken.

That is just another “just because” reason.

“There is an a ROC cause there is an Act!”

Riiigght!
Believe it or not, but the CAA is also bound by the laws of the country - they are created within the Civil Aviation Act to implement the requirements of the various aviation acts. They can not create any regulation in contravention to any of the Acts. Therefore, they can not allow commercial operation of a drone without an operating certificate.

They can recommend a change to the minister, and I believe that is in progress - but until it happens, the CAAs hands are tied.
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Re: I want to understand the logical reasons for an ROC?

Unread post by fourwings » Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:56 pm

That would be true if the ROC was in place just because of the Act which it is not. This I know because I spoke to one of the people who drew up the regulation and NEVER did that person say “we have the ROC because of the Act”
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Re: I want to understand the logical reasons for an ROC?

Unread post by Trevor Duane » Fri Aug 24, 2018 6:19 pm

Look let's be honest, I don't think you need to understand what the reason for an ROC is. Its seems perfectly clear that you know more than most after a speaking to your friend and buying a small drone.

My personal opinion is that you are looking more for entertainment than a learning experience as you seem to argue every point made. Good luck on your quest.
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Re: I want to understand the logical reasons for an ROC?

Unread post by fourwings » Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:44 pm

Let’s just be clear and honest. This is not a friend of mine.

(Didn’t know we were being dishonest here)

Secondly, your post seems extremely condescending. Do you consider yourself better than those just because you don’t have a small drone?

Lastly, it’s not hard to argue a point when it has no basis. If you consider that to be wanting to argue every point then maybe you should come with more concrete reasons and then you can accuse me of arguing every point. However it’s completely clear that no-one can give solid reasons including you and there are way more people that agree with me that the validity of the ROC is complete BS.

THAT ALONE proves that it’s not me arguing every point because I’m not alone. There are multitudes who believe the ROC to be ridiculous and at least we aren’t being “sheeple”.

If you want to be a sheeple then go for it.

But don’t accuse me of arguing baseless points when they have absolutely no basis.
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Re: I want to understand the logical reasons for an ROC?

Unread post by fourwings » Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:27 am

This is a perfect example of what’s going on. This is happening in the states right now. This vidieo was posted a week ago.

In South Africa we were just screwed over sooner without any input just like what’s happening in the US now. We were steamrolled like the AMA and hobbyist groups are being steamrolled in the US. But the point of the video is to demonstrate that it’s completely about money AND NOT about what’s best.

https://youtu.be/6rdsrKpCB04

https://youtu.be/ixSOaL9aXUA

As I mentioned previously the cost for a simple consultation on ROC manuals can be in excess of R50k per month for 6months. That’s R300k. This is not even mentioning the money that organizations stand to make for drone deliveries for companies like Amazon or in our country TakeAlot.

Drone highways? Where will drone pilots fly their drones then??

Now, am I just “arguing every point” or rather fighting for what’s right? You be the judge.
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Re: I want to understand the logical reasons for an ROC?

Unread post by zander » Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:26 pm

fourwings wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:44 pm
Let’s just be clear and honest. This is not a friend of mine.

(Didn’t know we were being dishonest here)

Secondly, your post seems extremely condescending. Do you consider yourself better than those just because you don’t have a small drone?

Lastly, it’s not hard to argue a point when it has no basis. If you consider that to be wanting to argue every point then maybe you should come with more concrete reasons and then you can accuse me of arguing every point. However it’s completely clear that no-one can give solid reasons including you and there are way more people that agree with me that the validity of the ROC is complete BS.

THAT ALONE proves that it’s not me arguing every point because I’m not alone. There are multitudes who believe the ROC to be ridiculous and at least we aren’t being “sheeple”.

If you want to be a sheeple then go for it.

But don’t accuse me of arguing baseless points when they have absolutely no basis.
=D>
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Re: I want to understand the logical reasons for an ROC?

Unread post by zander » Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:29 pm

fourwings wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:27 am
This is a perfect example of what’s going on. This is happening in the states right now. This vidieo was posted a week ago.

In South Africa we were just screwed over sooner without any input just like what’s happening in the US now. We were steamrolled like the AMA and hobbyist groups are being steamrolled in the US. But the point of the video is to demonstrate that it’s completely about money AND NOT about what’s best.

https://youtu.be/6rdsrKpCB04

https://youtu.be/ixSOaL9aXUA

As I mentioned previously the cost for a simple consultation on ROC manuals can be in excess of R50k per month for 6months. That’s R300k. This is not even mentioning the money that organizations stand to make for drone deliveries for companies like Amazon or in our country TakeAlot.

Drone highways? Where will drone pilots fly their drones then??

Now, am I just “arguing every point” or rather fighting for what’s right? You be the judge.
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Re: I want to understand the logical reasons for an ROC?

Unread post by pilot_mikerr » Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:58 pm

Hey Guys, go have a look at www.dronemedia.co.za for a Managed ROC solution to this ROC issue. You can be flying legally within 2-3 weeks of application and it is a fraction of the cost of a full ROC all while being recognized by SACAA.
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Re: I want to understand the logical reasons for an ROC?

Unread post by Trevor Duane » Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:28 am

pilot_mikerr wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:58 pm
Hey Guys, go have a look at www.dronemedia.co.za for a Managed ROC solution to this ROC issue. You can be flying legally within 2-3 weeks of application and it is a fraction of the cost of a full ROC all while being recognized by SACAA.
This is always going to be an alternative, but its at a high risk to the operator. We tried it for a while but then choose another avenue ( (employing the potential partners) however if the correct management mechanisms are in place I'm sure the risks can be mitigated. It also comes at a high costs to the operator and some will say that operators offering this service are exploiting the pilots but they do not understand the costs involved.
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Re: I want to understand the logical reasons for an ROC?

Unread post by E816 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:17 am

fourwings wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:25 pm
The RPL should still be sufficient enough without the ROC for small drone operators. Isn’t that why we train for the license in the first place? To become safe and efficient in the skies? How does the ROC make the RPL better?

Posting the Act doesn’t just give rise to logical reason.
This is the same as saying that a fresh CPL can get dad to buy them a chopper and they offer aerial photography, surveys, flips without an AOC.

The purpose of the ROC is to create a structured operations plan, satisfying CAA that you will be operating in a manner that is safe and within the regulations. This includes maintenance, QC, safety etc. You will need to demonstrate to CAA that you are in fact able to operate within the specification of your operations manual, and you will get audited regularly to ensure that you maintain your operation within this specification.

As both a manned (f/w & r/w) pilot and an RPL I firmly believe these regulations are neccessary for the safety of all who operate in the sky, and an RPL is not enough. Trust me, when you're in a manned aircraft and have a near miss with Phantom over Harties, you'll understand. If you think UAV's are over regulated now, wait till one causes an accident with fatalities.
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Re: I want to understand the logical reasons for an ROC?

Unread post by fourwings » Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:15 am

E816 wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:17 am
This is the same as saying that a fresh CPL can get dad to buy them a chopper and they offer aerial photography, surveys, flips without an AOC.

The purpose of the ROC is to create a structured operations plan, satisfying CAA that you will be operating in a manner that is safe and within the regulations. This includes maintenance, QC, safety etc. You will need to demonstrate to CAA that you are in fact able to operate within the specification of your operations manual, and you will get audited regularly to ensure that you maintain your operation within this specification.

As both a manned (f/w & r/w) pilot and an RPL I firmly believe these regulations are neccessary for the safety of all who operate in the sky, and an RPL is not enough. Trust me, when you're in a manned aircraft and have a near miss with Phantom over Harties, you'll understand. If you think UAV's are over regulated now, wait till one causes an accident with fatalities.
@E816, I can't tell you how happy I am that you posted your post coming from a point of view that is intelligent and mature. Your post was not made with malice intent. Nor was it made to simply tell me that I am insane and stupid or simply being argumentative. I am SO appreciative of your mature approach to this.

I would like to say the following if you are willing to read it but this is in no way meant to be any form of personal attack. Please understand and appreciate that.
This is the same as saying that a fresh CPL can get dad to buy them a chopper and they offer aerial photography, surveys, flips without an AOC.
NO! Absolutely NOT! it is by FAAR NOT the same thing. Firstly, a chopper flies above 400 feet in the same airspace as other manned vehicles. Secondly, it is a MANNED machine. Not an UNMANNED machine. It's so not the same thing AT ALL! Giving my kid a manned aircraft to allow him to fly above 400 feet around other manned aircrafts doing flips and surveys is just not the same cheese as my cheese. It is chalk compared to my cheese.

Let me first-up say unequivocally that I am ALL for safe flying. Absolutely agree!! I can't stress this enough.

However, I would love to see you standing in a crowded room with all RPL holders that are sitting without work and saying that the ROC is absolutely necessary for all drone pilots including small drone operators! Not to mention all the RPL holders in other countries that don't have to jump through these hoops that South Africa has to.

SOME STATS FROM SIMON SEGWABE's talk at the Dronecon 2018 this year.
+-25 ROC holders vs +-1500 RPL holders
+-80 000 drones in the hands of the people and only +-800 registered
This is by far a perfect example that it is completely unbalanced.

I would feel MUCH safer if more drones were registered so that I can find the twit that flies recklessly.

SA decided a ROC is what needs to be implemented. What you seem to be saying is that we are FAAR more intelligent than countries like New Zealand, Australia, The United States, The UK etc, etc ?? The list just goes on and on of countries that do NOT require small drone operators to be mandated to fly under a ROC. Yet, we seem to be much more intelligent than the rest to just KNOW for a fact that a ROC is required for EVERYONE? Even applying to people flying 0.7kg drone. It has NEVER been proven that any drone is fatally dangerous. Every single video on Youtube showing collisions with drones ALWAYS resulted in the drone being completely obliterated. If you want me to post videos proving my point I will. That is NOT saying AT ALL that a drone cannot cause fatal damage. no no no...I am not saying that at all...I am simply saying that in 5-6 years since drones became popular on the market, there have only been a handful of cases around the world where a drone has actually collided with a manned aircraft and in every situation, the drone lost the battle. Not to mention the incredibly low statistics showing the number of drones flying around to compared to collisions occurring in 5-6years. The stats are overwhelmingly tiny.

Watch this video from the Dronecon in May 2018.



Simon Segwabe agrees that we need solid regulations. I personally completely agree with him as well. HOWEVER, he also admits that the regulations need to be reviewed and relaxed. He admitted that when implementing the regulations in 2015, there was NOTHING to use as a basis and I completely appreciate that. Really I do! They needed a quick fix and blanket stating everything was the solution for them. I have respect for him that he agrees that it needs to be relaxed for certain criteria of drones and operators.

Because of these extremely strict laws, there are only +-800 registered drones in the country compared to the +-80 000 drones in the hands of the people. At the moment, people are ONLY registering their drones when they get an RPL and people are NOT registering drones because they refuse to get an RPL due to the costs scaring them away...Why register a drone at all if you don't have an RPL? Wouldn't it serve the state and people better if people felt comfortable to register their drones? I think so...

This is the approach that other countries have followed and they have FAAAR more registered drones in their books. Why? because they have not made it impossible for people to become licensed and to register their drones. The US simply requires that you pay $150 and study for the test and do a practical and you are licensed. They are FAAAR bigger than SA and yet they have faar more registered drones and RPL holders.

My last point I would like to make, (and if you got this far I am so appreciative of you reading my post), is that once people hold an RPL in their hand, they have a much higher regard and respect for the hobby and machine. Isn't that what we want? It is evident from all the idiots on youtube that do stupid things DO NOT have an RPL. Can I prove that? no...sadly I can't but believe me, when someone is holding an RPL and he is flying, he knows that if he does something stupid and gets contacted by the FAA or CAA, he will be in MUCH more trouble than someone who is NOT holding an RPL.

It's much better to make it easier to fly than more difficult to fly. Making it difficult creates outlaws and criminals. I can't stress this enough. They won't control this market. They need to live alongside it. Work WITH the people. Don't alienate them because that is exactly what is happening now. The people of SA are being alienated and to be honest, if I come across someone who is flying a drone and I ask him for his RPL to prove his competency, I will accept the RPL without a doubt as enough. I won't contest it any further.

The ROC is not helping small drone operators nor the economy...it is simply making it worse!

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