I want to understand the logical reasons for an ROC?

Unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV), commonly known as a drone and also referred to as an unpiloted aerial vehicle and a remotely piloted aircraft (RPA) by the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO), is an aircraft without a human pilot aboard.

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E816
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Re: I want to understand the logical reasons for an ROC?

Unread post by E816 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 2:32 pm

@fourwings, just to clarify my point of view, I'm not saying that the ROC is not over regulated, it definately is, but the fact remains that we cannot go without some sort of regulation, certification and compliance, all of which needs to be measurable and auditable by an independent body, whether it's CAA or not.

Simply having an RPL and doing commercial work is definately comparible to having a CPL and doing commercial work without on AOC, and it happens. There is no doubt the pilot in both instances (CPL and RPL) might be perfectly capable of performing whatever commercial flying they are doing. But how can we be certain, and how will we ever find out whether the pilot is operating safely, within the law, and within both his and his' equipments limitations. When there is no system of accountability and auditing, things fall through the cracks quickly. Let's just say the RPL doesn't fill in his battery logs as required (let's be honest it's a pain) there will simply be no indication at all of an impending failure. Take a nice rig with 6kg payload dropping out of the sky from 300ft, it can cause substantial damage, specially when photographing something like real estate (lots of buildings and people around)

Again, I'm not saying the regulation is perfect, but it still serves a purpose. As a manned pilot drones are a real concern, specially when guys are not clearly informed of the dangers and regulations. Remember, as a manned aircraft I am legally allowed to fly as high as I deem safe (outside of built up areas) as long as I'm not being a nuisance and that when it comes to RPAS I have right of way, which is very onerous for the RPL pilot. And drones are invisible in the sky, specially white ones.

PS. Helo pilots suffer the early onset of hypoxia at about 200ft AGL 8) :lol:
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Re: I want to understand the logical reasons for an ROC?

Unread post by fourwings » Wed Aug 29, 2018 4:51 pm

E816 wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 2:32 pm
@fourwings, just to clarify my point of view, I'm not saying that the ROC is not over regulated, it definately is, but the fact remains that we cannot go without some sort of regulation, certification and compliance, all of which needs to be measurable and auditable by an independent body, whether it's CAA or not.

Simply having an RPL and doing commercial work is definately comparible to having a CPL and doing commercial work without on AOC, and it happens. There is no doubt the pilot in both instances (CPL and RPL) might be perfectly capable of performing whatever commercial flying they are doing. But how can we be certain, and how will we ever find out whether the pilot is operating safely, within the law, and within both his and his' equipments limitations. When there is no system of accountability and auditing, things fall through the cracks quickly. Let's just say the RPL doesn't fill in his battery logs as required (let's be honest it's a pain) there will simply be no indication at all of an impending failure. Take a nice rig with 6kg payload dropping out of the sky from 300ft, it can cause substantial damage, specially when photographing something like real estate (lots of buildings and people around)

Again, I'm not saying the regulation is perfect, but it still serves a purpose. As a manned pilot drones are a real concern, specially when guys are not clearly informed of the dangers and regulations. Remember, as a manned aircraft I am legally allowed to fly as high as I deem safe (outside of built up areas) as long as I'm not being a nuisance and that when it comes to RPAS I have right of way, which is very onerous for the RPL pilot. And drones are invisible in the sky, specially white ones.

PS. Helo pilots suffer the early onset of hypoxia at about 200ft AGL 8) :lol:
Firstly, I am enjoying this conversation with you. I feel like someone is actually trying to see it my way even though you might not necessarily agree with me. Thank you :-)

In my opinion, most of the things you say are "nail on the head" but there are just a few things I feel differently about. I just think it can be done differently. I personally don't think a special certification is a requirement for small drone operators and other countries clearly feel the same.
Simply having an RPL and doing commercial work is definately comparible to having a CPL and doing commercial work without on AOC, and it happens.
I'm sorry, I just can't agree. I agree that this probably does happen more often than we would like to see but I just can't bring myself to agree. Something doesn't sit right about that comparison.

Small drone operators would not necessarily be flying drones over 5kg. Yes, 5kg can do some damage. I believe that even smaller, lighter weight drones can even do damage. Take the DJI Inspire 2 drone. That weighs 3.3kg and that isn't the smallest drone in the world. It is a perfect drone for small drone operators simply trying to make a living. I personally would consider anything heavier than 10-15kg to require some sort of stricter regulation. Maybe something like the ROC or maybe not. To be honest, I can't really be certain. I'll leave that up to the more experienced people to decide.

However,...compliance? For sure. it is needed and how do they know we as small drone operators are complying? Well firstly, there needs to be a level of trust in the pilot after they hold an RPL. They need to trust that we as RPL holders will respect the skies. What happens to pilots that don't comply? Their wings are clipped. Keep in mind, an RPL holder that has caused massive compliance issues will not be able to fly again for commercial use at all. I wouldn't want that to happen to me after all the effort I put in to become licensed and registered. I wouldn't jeapordise it for the world and I suspect other RPL holders will feel the same.

How to do it differently??

Well, for example, they could always request access to our DJI accounts that contains ALL our logs of our drones history. Altitude, speed, EVERYTHING is recorded. As a licensed drone pilot, they must simply make this a requirement if and when they want to see it in order to ensure that I am complying. They could request that we manually upload our logs once a month or something and they can have a server-side application that looks for anomalies and flags questionable behaviour.

Will this work? I don't know. maybe more has to be done before it will work but what I am trying to say is that there must be other ways other than having to pay EXORBITANT amounts of money for a ROC just to make a living. Not all ROC holders are going to employ all RPL holders and not to mention the ridiculous commission slice they take from RPL holders before the RPL holder can take home some money.

My question is this....If a ROC was such a requirement in SA for small drone operators, what is different in our country that makes it a requirement(besides the Act itself)? Why are other countries not doing the same? If I can get a good reason for this, I might be able to move on from this topic.
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Re: I want to understand the logical reasons for an ROC?

Unread post by E816 » Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:53 am

@fourwings - I again get where you are coming from, and like I said the ROC does definately over regulate this industry.

I like your idea of uploading logs to CAA which they can then scrutinise and check. Perhaps an idea is for CAA to create a standard ROC Lite (for lack of a better word) where it stipulates exactly what is allowed/not allowed, what the required operating procedures are, required insurances, which drones are allowed to be used. So a strict framework that covers the basics a small drone operator should need. This ROC Lite is then issued for a nominal fee based on certain (less onerous) requirements. Electronic docs can then be submitted and some smart software app can check compliance.

If you want more than what the ROC Lite offers, you need the full ROC.

In my opinion this could work well, however, here are the challenges.

1.) This is CAA, they are unable to get an electronic documents management solution to work for static documents.
2.) This is CAA, they have a serious capacity problem. Introducing another 500 ROC's will bring the already bureaucratic heavy organision to a grinding halt.
3.) Where does one draw the line between ROC Lite and ROC?

I still think it could work, but CAA is the challenge here. I remember the days where you would wait for your license renenwal, now it's 7 working days. Things are not getting better.
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Re: I want to understand the logical reasons for an ROC?

Unread post by fourwings » Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:52 am

Damn, that would be a perfect solution!! I agree...CAA is very behind when it comes to these things.

I love the idea of a ROC light with strict guidelines that they provide making sure we adhere to them. Then I wouldn't need to hire someone to help me do the ROC for me.

ROC lite is such a perfect compromise!
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Re: I want to understand the logical reasons for an ROC?

Unread post by RuanS » Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:05 am

fourwings wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:52 am
Damn, that would be a perfect solution!! I agree...CAA is very behind when it comes to these things.

I love the idea of a ROC light with strict guidelines that they provide making sure we adhere to them. Then I wouldn't need to hire someone to help me do the ROC for me.

ROC lite is such a perfect compromise!
Definitely the way to go.
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Re: I want to understand the logical reasons for an ROC?

Unread post by Shepherd » Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:08 pm

nice debate happening here, liked reading it.

We dont need to reinvent the wheel, America has been using this application super successfully for some time now.

I post about it before while it was in trial phase, I believe its in full production as of now. https://www.airmap.com/

Download the app, it works in SA too except you cant actually schedule an approved flight.

THIS, and RPL and perhaps some sort of "ROC" online registration and acceptance of the rules is literally all we need to be relevant in the drone marker place.

I will happily request EVERY flight, even if it is a hobbyist ones... Super simple, super uncorrupt, too easy to administer any violations since all the data is there and linked...

Add in the advancements of ADS-B transponders making it into enterprise drone solutions as a standard and we have a recipe for a well managed drone ecology.

Its been pointed out here before, this is about money and protecting legacy air operated businesses, call it a "trade embargo or sanction..."

I have taken very real business opportunities to local ROC holders and were given the cold shoulder, needless to say they couldn't side step me and get the business right either because they were charging in lines of what it costs to operate a Bell 412 versus an enterprise drone... (sigh, silly people)

Sadly I also know of two ROC's that have withdrawn and left the game all together because too many times they would be red-taped from flying on the day of the job even after having an approved FAU and Flight plan being approved...
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Re: I want to understand the logical reasons for an ROC?

Unread post by skytrooper » Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:01 am

=D>
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Re: I want to understand the logical reasons for an ROC?

Unread post by zander » Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:59 pm

There's absolutely nothing to understand, its a Circus #-o

ROC: Reign Of Circus
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Re: I want to understand the logical reasons for an ROC?

Unread post by BIG_BIRD » Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:27 am

Very interesting topic and reading.
I heard of an interesting discussion on drone filming at the RapidLion film festival in Johannesburg, apparently SACAA will be there too to explain the latest regulation. There will be a Q&A

http://rapidlion.co.za/rapidlion-films- ... 2019-03-07
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Re: I want to understand the logical reasons for an ROC?

Unread post by waterkoppie » Sat Mar 09, 2019 2:58 pm

BIG_BIRD wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:27 am
Very interesting topic and reading.
I heard of an interesting discussion on drone filming at the RapidLion film festival in Johannesburg, apparently SACAA will be there too to explain the latest regulation. There will be a Q&A

http://rapidlion.co.za/rapidlion-films- ... 2019-03-07
probably more red tape and even more stiffened regulations, easily and precisely summed up: the drone industry is one big constipation #-o
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Re: I want to understand the logical reasons for an ROC?

Unread post by fourwings » Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:17 pm

I actually had a conversation with the very person who thought up and drew up the regulations that was submitted and passed by the CAA board for the implementation of the ROC.

Needless to say, it was clear the mentality was to rake in mountains of money and the question that was asked directly to me was "So you think that if you go and do a 2 week course to get your RPL, now you are a qualified pilot?"

My response was "ABSOLUTELY YES!"

and this person LAUGHED out loud at me over the phone to which I asked "Whats so funny?"

And the response I got was "So you think you can fly after your course?"

and I answered "YES, I would most DEFINITELY be able to fly my drone safely seeing as though I'm training to fly drones within the 120m altitude limit and not aeroplanes that fly above 120m altitude. I'm not exactly training to be an airline pilot but a drone pilot! Do you not understand the difference?"

to which the conversation went silent as the person had nothing to say...

The bottom line is that these people that drew up this ROC crap are not even WORKING for the CAA anymore and they simply made sure that they were going to get an income from verifying and vetting the ROC's for the next few years. It was VERY clever indeed and we are the sausages that are taking it lying down and any pilot here that flies full sized planes that argue this simple fact and defend it are clearly not forward thinkers!
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Re: I want to understand the logical reasons for an ROC?

Unread post by skytrooper » Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:43 pm

Well there is a huge difference between a 10 years experienced drone/rc pilot and a 2 week certified one, but i do get your 120 meter limit sarcasm. (yes the Caa limit is real, but get what you saying, we're not exactly flying full scale UAV's 1000s of kms.)

I do thoroughly agree with your view. The schools are making the money cause everyone wants to be a drone pilot, the new sheep are being fed fantasies about the wonders of being a drone pilot, and stoked on by the schools because GUESS WHY ?? :lol:

The schools know very well there's no work out there and they know the over regulation, endless paperwork and continuous licensing demands changing all the time, and extra certificates needed for certain types of work will be enough to drive any wannabe attempt into the ground. heck it's recurring business for them, so the more this show gets regulated the better for them :lol:

It's like the health industry, in the past (and still is) there were certain tried an trusted exercises that if you do them correctly and consistently you will get astonishing results (given your diet is right)

Now days in order for the certification institutions to make money, they have to come up with new "ideas" or "ways" so they can fool everyone to think their ideas is not "irrelevant" (otherwise they don't make any money) moreover they need to spam influence and advertise to society that it is needed, brainwash them into believing that it is needed, so now you get all kinds of queer looking individuals, giving dance classes, certified as a "thing" by the institutions, jumping around doing the most nonsensical things and calling it an "exercise class"

I know i'm laughing, but it's not funny.

Back to RPL/ROC (applicable to the health industry too though)
What the new sheep are being fed is nothing more than some crazy hippy music being fed into their brains as a dream that is becoming "reality" (but it's just a cloud above your head their creating, nothing real in front of you)

What we end up with is as of now over 600 ran sacked qualified drone pilots, scratching for crumbs because of the constipation imposed, while only the schools and select few chosen "roc's" rakes in the dough. Monopoly at it's best :lol:

Of course, there are the illegals going about their everyday thing and making money, but it's not as many doing it as some may think.
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Re: I want to understand the logical reasons for an ROC?

Unread post by fourwings » Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:12 pm

skytrooper wrote:Well there is a huge difference between a 10 years experienced drone/rc pilot and a 2 week certified one, but i do get your 120 meter limit sarcasm. (yes the Caa limit is real, but get what you saying, we're not exactly flying full scale UAV's 1000s of kms.)
Noone denies that a person that has more hours than another is a more experience drone pilot but how did they start? They also had to start somewhere...That shouldnt prejudice me or anyone out there from making a start in life!

Regarding the rest of your post, I wholeheartedly agree but I can't help but feel that anyone flying their drone "illegaly" (based on the regulations currently put forth) is actually acceptable in my eyes.

The fact that people are "hamstrung" to be able to fly their drone and put food in their babies mouths is downright shameful!

So many countries around the world simply allow the pilots to do the necessary paperwork and get up and running.

I come back to what I said earlier in this post: the numbers speak for themselves. only 800-1000 odd people have officially registered their drones in SA. This is PURELY because of the over regulation of the industry. They have created a bunch of outlaws that cannot be faulted in my opinion!

I would feel safer knowing that MORE pilots are registering their drones because they can get their license and actually use it, rather than the measly 1% of the 80 000 drones in the hands of the people that have actually registered because they have their RPL. I mean...KEHMAAN! only between 800-1000 people??? Is this not evidence enough that something is grossly wrong here?

I say again to anyone reading this thread, do yourselves a favor and watch the talk from Simon Segwabe given last year June.
Especially from this point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-nhkA1gFIs&t=660s
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Re: I want to understand the logical reasons for an ROC?

Unread post by skytrooper » Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:02 pm

Spoken like a champ, you speak the truth, i have even more inside info that can create an even clearer picture of what goes on behind the scenes, If you can imagine it, more than likely it is how it is in reality.
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Re: I want to understand the logical reasons for an ROC?

Unread post by KZNChris » Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:53 am

Watch this guy and eat your heart out ....

Trent Palmer -- Professional Cinematic Drone pilot / Company Owner



Follow him here

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... ent+palmer

TOO many socialist and authoritarian minded people in SA AND I am NOT talking about the ANC / SACP
In SA "we" have NEVER really understood what FREEDOM REALLY means ........

"WE" need people like this in SACAA

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