Lanseria ILS ?

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Re: Lanseria ILS ?

Unread post by HJK 414 » Wed Mar 02, 2016 10:50 pm

Mauler wrote:Attached is the motivation submitted to NASCOM by ATNS in August last year. See point 2.4 - they have no money.

Unfortunately, at that meeting AOPA-South Africa was under major attack by CAA who were trying to discredit our efforts at establishing VFR routes around and through controlled airspaces. AOPA was also facing a major onslaught from Poppy Khoza and her henchpersons to chuck AOPA out of both CARCom and NASCOM - simply because we keep people informed about most of the things that go on there.

Sorry about not letting everyone know and/or putting up a spirited fight, but we were a bit on the back foot at that time.

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Mauler,

There seems to be repetitive pattern ......... and AOPA appears being pushed further and further into a corner ......
Is it possible to get out of this "sliding slope / position" ??
Or is this simply a sign of the times ?? and the powers that be ......
Any other (outside) routes that are open / to get back into a "normal" working relationship with p.e. CAA ?

JK
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Re: Lanseria ILS ?

Unread post by Mauler » Thu Mar 03, 2016 8:55 am

HJK 414 wrote:There seems to be repetitive pattern ......... and AOPA appears being pushed further and further into a corner ......
Is it possible to get out of this "sliding slope / position" ??
Or is this simply a sign of the times ?? and the powers that be ......
Any other (outside) routes that are open / to get back into a "normal" working relationship with p.e. CAA ?
Interesting observation. We expect 2016 to be a pivotal year for the whole of South Africa, if not the whole world. There are challenges that need to be addressed, while also opportunities that must be grasped as they arise.

The main fact that has an impact on our authorities is that they are drastically running out of money. We are in the throes of the SAA/Finance Minister crisis at the moment. In addition, the governing party has its back against the wall with loss of support and serious infighting.

Everyone in government is very defensive and hoping like hell they can hold onto their positions and patronage. But CAA is losing qualified personnel at an alarming rate, and the few that remain that of any use are covering their backsides against the likelihood of finding themselves unemployed in a marketplace with very few opportunities. The best have left a long time ago and filled the gaps in the foreign job markets - mostly in the middle and far east.

In the midst of infrastructure collapse, there is a continual reshuffling of staff, but no progress is being made in any area.

The two challenges that AOPA faces in trying to hold GA together is a growing paranoia on the side of the "authorities", and a growing apathy on the side of the industry itself.

Far from being "pushed into a corner", AOPA is vocally and quite aggressively tackling the issues of the day - and there are many who resent that. If we compare the microcosm of general aviation to the greater nationwide picture, the parallels are obvious. The useless, corrupt, dishonest money-grubbers and their equally useless subservient minions must go. There is no money left to waste or to steal.

Do you think there is some way for South Africans to resume a "normal" working relationship with the likes of Jacob Zuma? If you have any ideas that haven't been thought of already, please let us know!

In the meantime, AOPA's policy is simply to support any issues or developments that advance GA, and to strongly oppose developments that damage this currently very fragile industry. It is as simple as that. AOPA remains very strong, very functional and enjoys great support - even in an economically embattled industry. Most other "aviation bodies" are in deep trouble, especially those that are reliant on CAA patronage, and some have been forced out the door already. There is much bickering out there, and we believe it is a good sign that AOPA is the focus of some of the yapping. We listen to the good stuff, and we ignore the nonsense.

Especially when times are tough, a bit of robust debate is a very good thing and can be very productive as well as psychologically stimulating. But when it devolves into personal insults and squabbling over irrelevancies, it is time to turn around and walk away.
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Re: Lanseria ILS ?

Unread post by HJK 414 » Fri Mar 04, 2016 10:26 am

Mauler wrote:
HJK 414 wrote:There seems to be repetitive pattern ......... and AOPA appears being pushed further and further into a corner ......
Is it possible to get out of this "sliding slope / position" ??
Or is this simply a sign of the times ?? and the powers that be ......
Any other (outside) routes that are open / to get back into a "normal" working relationship with p.e. CAA ?
Interesting observation. We expect 2016 to be a pivotal year for the whole of South Africa, if not the whole world. There are challenges that need to be addressed, while also opportunities that must be grasped as they arise.

The main fact that has an impact on our authorities is that they are drastically running out of money. We are in the throes of the SAA/Finance Minister crisis at the moment. In addition, the governing party has its back against the wall with loss of support and serious infighting.

Everyone in government is very defensive and hoping like hell they can hold onto their positions and patronage. But CAA is losing qualified personnel at an alarming rate, and the few that remain that of any use are covering their backsides against the likelihood of finding themselves unemployed in a marketplace with very few opportunities. The best have left a long time ago and filled the gaps in the foreign job markets - mostly in the middle and far east.

In the midst of infrastructure collapse, there is a continual reshuffling of staff, but no progress is being made in any area.

The two challenges that AOPA faces in trying to hold GA together is a growing paranoia on the side of the "authorities", and a growing apathy on the side of the industry itself.

Far from being "pushed into a corner", AOPA is vocally and quite aggressively tackling the issues of the day - and there are many who resent that. If we compare the microcosm of general aviation to the greater nationwide picture, the parallels are obvious. The useless, corrupt, dishonest money-grubbers and their equally useless subservient minions must go. There is no money left to waste or to steal.

Do you think there is some way for South Africans to resume a "normal" working relationship with the likes of Jacob Zuma? If you have any ideas that haven't been thought of already, please let us know!

In the meantime, AOPA's policy is simply to support any issues or developments that advance GA, and to strongly oppose developments that damage this currently very fragile industry. It is as simple as that. AOPA remains very strong, very functional and enjoys great support - even in an economically embattled industry. Most other "aviation bodies" are in deep trouble, especially those that are reliant on CAA patronage, and some have been forced out the door already. There is much bickering out there, and we believe it is a good sign that AOPA is the focus of some of the yapping. We listen to the good stuff, and we ignore the nonsense.

Especially when times are tough, a bit of robust debate is a very good thing and can be very productive as well as psychologically stimulating. But when it devolves into personal insults and squabbling over irrelevancies, it is time to turn around and walk away.

Chris,

There was no innuendo .....My post was actually meant in a supportive manner.
I have been noting that the CAA and other institutions are slowly but surely fading away into a dis-organized - underfunded and mis-managed pattern. Hence my remark that AOPA is being "pushed" into a corner. I was wondering whether there was a possibility to liaise with other organisations - CASA - FAA or other for regulative guidelines or airspace management (VFR as mentioned per this thread...) to be able to get AOPA into a more regulatory management role. An official role that is .....Still governed and overseen by CAA or any other governmental body - but"free" to advise - regulate (up to a point) and mandate actions for and on behalf of the GA - and perhaps aviation regulation in South Africa. Thereby freeing up the lack of direction from official organisations and being able to "get going again".
Perhaps a contribution via AOPA to "maintain" a part of the infrastructure ? I realize that lack of funding at CAA and the outflow of good staff is causing a downward spiral that is hard to stop.....

AS for having idea's how to work with Jacob Zuma and get back to normal ...... thx for the snub .... but that was not the intent - nor was the remark called for ...... I have seen the process in the rest of Africa since the late 60's and was simply suggesting that instead of a repeat in history - it may be time for someone in Government to realize that if they wish to keep the infrastructure in place - a organisation such as AOPA could bring solace and perhaps management and regulatory expertise without the burden of shifting political tables....

Perhaps robust debate can lead to solutions........ But perhaps a combination of interests is called for ...?? A sort of NGO role with limited regulation authority for AOPA - with guidance and comparison of applicable regulation with other countries ... ?? Thereby dissolving the "paranoia" on the formal side and more problem solving action from AOPA / without being shot down - harassed or simply ignored by CAA - would - in my view - dissolve the apathy of the members and dependent within the aviation market in RSA.
Is it possible - I do not know - but going down the spiral as per the other countries is not the solution - and in my view AOPA is one of the available solutions - whether the government believe it or not ....

JK.
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Re: Lanseria ILS ?

Unread post by Mauler » Fri Mar 04, 2016 5:55 pm

HJK 414 wrote:I have been noting that the CAA and other institutions are slowly but surely fading away into a dis-organized - underfunded and mis-managed pattern. Hence my remark that AOPA is being "pushed" into a corner. I was wondering whether there was a possibility to liaise with other organisations - CASA - FAA or other for regulative guidelines or airspace management (VFR as mentioned per this thread...) to be able to get AOPA into a more regulatory management role. An official role that is .....Still governed and overseen by CAA or any other governmental body - but"free" to advise - regulate (up to a point) and mandate actions for and on behalf of the GA - and perhaps aviation regulation in South Africa.
AOPA - anywhere in the world - is not a regulator, and there are many pitfalls in trying to become one as some in South Africa have recently discovered. AOPA is an advocacy; it represents people's rights, it does not attempt to be some kind of governmental department.

AOPA works together with other aviation representative bodies - sometimes we are on the same side of the table, sometimes we have to work out compromises where there are competing interests. With government - and not just the CAA - we have to thrash out deals where conflicting issues need to be resolved. Environmental issues is just one example.

A big problem we have with government - and primarily with CAA - is that there is a hypersensitivity due to the the current ANC government visibly failing. This is also what is driving the focus on racism by the government elite who are feeling some winds of change blowing. It makes it very difficult to deal with people who are deep pain and fear of their expectations now clearly faltering. Being nice to them is either perceived as weakness or as patronising - or even as hostile confidence trickery. There is a political and racial aspect to everything in South Africa currently. This severely impedes keeping everyone finely focused on the issues we deal with: aviation safety and the development of general aviation.

To get some kind of feel for the environment in which we are currently working, I strongly suggest that you read this article very carefully. I have:

https://www.biznews.com/thought-leaders ... -rhetoric/
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Re: Lanseria ILS ?

Unread post by HJK 414 » Fri Mar 04, 2016 11:01 pm

Mauler wrote:
HJK 414 wrote:I have been noting that the CAA and other institutions are slowly but surely fading away into a dis-organized - underfunded and mis-managed pattern. Hence my remark that AOPA is being "pushed" into a corner. I was wondering whether there was a possibility to liaise with other organisations - CASA - FAA or other for regulative guidelines or airspace management (VFR as mentioned per this thread...) to be able to get AOPA into a more regulatory management role. An official role that is .....Still governed and overseen by CAA or any other governmental body - but"free" to advise - regulate (up to a point) and mandate actions for and on behalf of the GA - and perhaps aviation regulation in South Africa.
AOPA - anywhere in the world - is not a regulator, and there are many pitfalls in trying to become one as some in South Africa have recently discovered. AOPA is an advocacy; it represents people's rights, it does not attempt to be some kind of governmental department.

AOPA works together with other aviation representative bodies - sometimes we are on the same side of the table, sometimes we have to work out compromises where there are competing interests. With government - and not just the CAA - we have to thrash out deals where conflicting issues need to be resolved. Environmental issues is just one example.

A big problem we have with government - and primarily with CAA - is that there is a hypersensitivity due to the the current ANC government visibly failing. This is also what is driving the focus on racism by the government elite who are feeling some winds of change blowing. It makes it very difficult to deal with people who are deep pain and fear of their expectations now clearly faltering. Being nice to them is either perceived as weakness or as patronising - or even as hostile confidence trickery. There is a political and racial aspect to everything in South Africa currently. This severely impedes keeping everyone finely focused on the issues we deal with: aviation safety and the development of general aviation.

To get some kind of feel for the environment in which we are currently working, I strongly suggest that you read this article very carefully. I have:

https://www.biznews.com/thought-leaders ... -rhetoric/
Mauler,

I have read the article and also some similar articles over the past 6 months.....
I hear you - and actually think - after spending time in the 60's and 70's in Malawi - Zambia - Rhodesia etc ......... before ending up in RSA - I actually recognize the process ......It's history repeating itself ....... and think I have a fair idea how it will end......
Many organisations in those countries simply ceased to exist - or lost all members and simply lost traction - and all I am wondering - and asked, is whether you /within your role could see whether another way is possible, to avoid a similar trajectory ...... ??
I do not have the solution - nor am I trying to tell you how to run your affairs ......but robust debates with people that have no interest in you - or your cause .....?? Perhaps if you can not beat them - sidestep them / if a different role ? ...... or at least participate as a NGO or similar was the initial thought ....... we all know where the current process will probably take you .....

I will leave it at that..... it seems to annoy you .....
That was not the intent ....

JK
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Re: Lanseria ILS ?

Unread post by ppakotze » Mon Mar 07, 2016 8:43 am

Can we get back on the ILS topic?

Understand that Lanseria is doing trials for precision GNSS approaches, possibly in part motivated by their new ILS not being much better than the old?

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Re: Lanseria ILS ?

Unread post by Aquila » Sat Mar 12, 2016 8:12 pm

ppakotze wrote:Can we get back on the ILS topic?

Understand that Lanseria is doing trials for precision GNSS approaches, possibly in part motivated by their new ILS not being much better than the old?

Regards
P.
That's very interesting, is it LPV type "precision" that they are talking. If it is it would be interesting to know what type of SBAS and/or GBAS they will be planning to use...

I'm not a fan of the rumour mill but I've heard the planned ILS Minima is quite low, a fair bit better than the previous one. That being said, the LNAV/VNAV minimia is already good...
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Re: Lanseria ILS ?

Unread post by BallsOfFire » Sat Mar 12, 2016 9:43 pm

Hope the ILS Iis in soon. The RNAV currently have quite high minimas, if you not VMC at circuit alt you have a problem....
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Re: Lanseria ILS ?

Unread post by Hop Harrigan » Sun Mar 13, 2016 9:17 am

On the subject of Lanseria minima...a question for the experienced pilots...
If you're returning to FALA from the Cape IFR and it goes below minima when you're 50 mm out where do you divert to?
FAOR is close enough that it could also be below minima apart from the cost of landing there.
Pilansberg, Wonderboom or all the way back to Bloem or the last VMC field you passed?
Are there any other options?
ps I would very much like to see an IF Forum on Avcom...Mods??
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Re: Lanseria ILS ?

Unread post by Iceberg » Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:16 am

Hop Harrigan wrote:On the subject of Lanseria minima...a question for the experienced pilots...
If you're returning to FALA from the Cape IFR and it goes below minima when you're 50 mm out where do you divert to?
FAOR is close enough that it could also be below minima apart from the cost of landing there.
Pilansberg, Wonderboom or all the way back to Bloem or the last VMC field you passed?
Are there any other options?
ps I would very much like to see an IF Forum on Avcom...Mods??
Wonderboom is close and because the elevation is 400ft lower, chances are good you'll get in on the NDB approach.
Ditto for Pilanesberg which is not that far away.
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Re: Lanseria ILS ?

Unread post by BallsOfFire » Thu Apr 14, 2016 11:43 am

I see ther is a NOTAM about the ILS @ FALA. Seems it is moving slowly in a direction....

Q) FAJA/QICCS/I/NBO/A/000/999/2556S02756E005
A) FALA B) 1603180730 C) 1606151000 EST
E) ILS RWY 07 INSTL, 110.7 MHZ AND DME CH 44X. IDENTITY TST. ONLY FOR
TEST PURPOSE, NOT TO BE USED.
CREATED: 18 Mar 2016 07:31:00
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Re: Lanseria ILS ?

Unread post by Hop Harrigan » Thu Apr 14, 2016 2:29 pm

I was in the FALA circuit yesterday (Wednesday) and noticed that the ILS seemed to be back to front...received the glide slope on the East end of the circuit and on approach to 07 the glide slope disappeared and the local user was indicating BKCRS.
I wonder if they're planning an ILS to 25?
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Re: Lanseria ILS ?

Unread post by BallsOfFire » Thu Apr 14, 2016 7:42 pm

As far as I understood there will be an ILS on 07 and 25.

OpsMike will be able to tell us when the time is right.
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Re: Lanseria ILS ?

Unread post by Upthere » Thu Apr 14, 2016 9:35 pm

Some info on SBAS in Southern Africa.
http://www.gnss-africa.org/?page_id=23
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Re: Lanseria ILS ?

Unread post by Upthere » Thu Apr 14, 2016 9:36 pm

Some info on SBAS in Southern Africa.
http://www.gnss-africa.org/?page_id=23
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