Lanseria ILS ?

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Hop Harrigan
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Re: Lanseria ILS ?

Unread post by Hop Harrigan » Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:49 pm

Seems I'm talking to myself here...oh well better than not talking :-)
Anyway, today I was informed by the FALA tower that the ILS is NOT yet available as it hasn't been calibrated...huh????
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Re: Lanseria ILS ?

Unread post by tansg » Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:23 am

Hop Harrigan wrote:IMG_0416.PNG

Ok, so here are a few things I don't understand about the FALA approaches...
1) Using the VOR Z approach one is vectored by ATC onto R245 at 8000' around 15nm LIV in order to start the descent at 12.1D LIV.
Now the new ILS calls for the a/c to be at 8000' at 18.6D LAI. The ILS is annotated to be a 3deg gs. That would imply that the VOR Z approach slope is greater than 3deg.
Q: Why is the VOR Z slope greater than a 'standard' 3 deg slope? Is this due to its being a non-precision approach?
Q: 18.6 nm from LAI seems an inordinately long detour to start ones approach?
2) Why are the RNAV points annotated on the ILS chart? What interest can they be to an a/c on the gs? Does this imply that a gps is required, in addition to 'vectors and DME' ?
Hope someone can enlighten me.
Hop
Some answers to your questions:
1. Note that DME distance for the VOR approach is from LIV and for the ILS it is from LAI which are not co-located which would give you the difference in glide slope it looks about a 1/4 of a NM.
2. Look at the profile view of the VOR approach and you will see the GP annotated as 3 degrees to the VDP (Visual Descent Point) where if you had the runway visual you would continue visually at 3 degrees to make the landing or where if not visual you continue at minima till the Missed Approach Point where you would execute your Missed Approach. Also note that if at any time you go visual enough for a landing before the MAPt you may attempt a landing but due the passing of the VDP you will need to approach at an angle greater than 3 degrees to the Touch Down Point (1,000' in from the threshold).
3. The RNAV points are on the ILS chart so that the ATC can clear them directly to those points to commence the "straight-in" ILS approach. This goes about traffic management and is the modern way of blending the 2 technologies to enable efficient operations. When GBAS is implemented and ILS is done away with, the work has already been done and the WPs already existing so the procedure can stay the same just on a different technology platform. Much easier for the pilots and ATC to adapt to.
4. Lastly the distance out for the hold is not so unusual in the modern era as the tendency is move holds further out and away from airfields to reduce congestion and if you look at the plan view of the ILS chart you will notice it distinctly says Radar Vectors to final. So in conjunction with my answer above in 3. you will see that you will under normal circumstances not be given a procedural approach. You will be either Radar Vectored to intercept or if you have the capacity cleared RNAV Direct to one of the WPs to commence the approach. The only people who will be flying the hold will be people with a Comms Failure and who may have or not already performed a Missed Approach and people doing IF training.

These approaches are forward thinking (like all of the approaches at FALA) and the designer (I think I see Mitchell's hand in this design), the ATCs, the SACAA (they have a very good section dealing with these things that have saved many a life due to their diligence) and the airport management all need to be commended. My only gripe is that Ebury was allowed to go ahead thus stuffing up all the Missed Approaches now forcing maneuvering in the MIssed Approach which severely increases the Risk Factor associated. All because of the ego's of people who would not accept reason.
Last edited by tansg on Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:00 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Lanseria ILS ?

Unread post by tansg » Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:29 am

highline wrote:tangs i guess i am asking this because if you have a look at the side view of the plate it would indicate that you would intercept the GS at LA1N2 at 8000 feet for a continuous descend on the glide slope throught the FAF. For me as a cross referance to check the GS in the A/C is correct i would expect to be on the GS at LA1N2 which is not the case. i would have to do a mental calculation to work out that at 18.6 nm i will be well below the GS at 8000 ft for that distance. Hope this makes sense.
i see our CAA GNSS approach onto 07 also shows the same continuous descend whereas the Jepp chart show a step down side view. will be interesting to see what the Jepp chart looks like.
Have a look at my answer to Hop above I think it may answer some of your questions. I would not expect you to be intercepting at LA1N2 but rather at LA1T1 which would correlate with your 8,000'.

If you have further questions please ask.
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Re: Lanseria ILS ?

Unread post by Hop Harrigan » Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:35 am

Hi tansg,
Great that there's someone on Avcom like yourself with informed answers...I will digest your reply, many thanks.
So do you maybe know how it's possible that FALA (or ATNS?) has known the publish date for the ILS for ever but at the appropriate date the ILS is not calibrated?
Hop
ps...or is the recalibration that's required as a result of the (illegally built) new building in the approach area?
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Re: Lanseria ILS ?

Unread post by tansg » Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:16 am

Hop Harrigan wrote:Hi tansg,
Great that there's someone on Avcom like yourself with informed answers...I will digest your reply, many thanks.
So do you maybe know how it's possible that FALA (or ATNS?) has known the publish date for the ILS for ever but at the appropriate date the ILS is not calibrated?
Hop
ps...or is the recalibration that's required as a result of the (illegally built) new building in the approach area?
Have no idea. I have been living outside SA for 3 years now so am not in contact with the relevant players anymore, but it is likely the previous calibration expired due to the time taken to validate this procedure. This is another story for another day but one where you need to say thank you to the SACAA section doing these checks for being so QA and safety focused otherwise the fatality count would have been a lot higher.
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Re: Lanseria ILS ?

Unread post by Hop Harrigan » Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:28 pm

So, a nice gent from the tower told me the ILS is available from las Friday. Anyone tried it yet?
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Re: Lanseria ILS ?

Unread post by highline » Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:51 pm

Flew it recently before it was published on a clear blue day and picked up the Localizer and Glide slope from 85 nm. Were able to fly it all the way down to finals from there, so all was good.
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Re: Lanseria ILS ?

Unread post by cam30683 » Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:47 pm

I flew it yesterday. Picked up the localizer at 55nm. Was really great! Well done to all involved
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Re: Lanseria ILS ?

Unread post by Flyman » Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:58 pm

Eventually. Took a long time to get it sorted. Any how good news . Where or with whom was the problem. CAA or FALA
PRECHECK'S !!!!!!
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Re: Lanseria ILS ?

Unread post by tansg » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:45 am

Flyman wrote:Eventually. Took a long time to get it sorted. Any how good news . Where or with whom was the problem. CAA or FALA
ATNS and now the only "experienced" procedure designer is rumuored to be leaving them and the CAA section checking and QA'ing these procedures is getting smaller everyday. The signs are not good for this capability in SA but then that allows me the chance to contract in for abroad in USD prices.

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