Instrument flying training

RNAV, GNSS, GPSS. Your place to discuss all aspects pertaining to Instrument Flying.

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Instrument flying training

Unread post by Brand » Sun Apr 10, 2016 7:22 pm

Hop Harrigan wrote:Hi Christo, I partly agree with you, however the Acedemy forum has become very generalized. In the US the CFIT stats are a lot better than ours, partly due to a more accessible IF rating as our own CAA is now implementing. I think that by placing direct emphasis on the IF rating and Instrument flight in general, we can go some way to reducing the SA CFIT stats. I think that a dedicated IF forum could provide the required focus.
So let me get the ball rolling Hop - what is meant by "a more accessible IF rating..."
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Re: New forum - INSTRUMENT FLYING

Unread post by Hop Harrigan » Sun Apr 10, 2016 8:28 pm

Hi Brand, ok I guess I'm walking into this one...
The way I understand the new "add-on" IF rating is that instead of writing 7 exams one will only be required to write one comprising all the 7 subjects. Howeve my understanding is that additionally, the content of those 7 theoretical subjects will be reduced by the removal of some of the content which would be applicable only to a higher rating eg the course currently contains a whole bunch of stuff around the operation of a B737's autopilot functions which would be covered in an ATPL course.
I might be wrong, but in the absence of clear info from the CAA, this is how I understand it.
This would constitute "more accessible"?
What's your opinion?
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Re: New forum - INSTRUMENT FLYING

Unread post by Brand » Sun Apr 10, 2016 9:01 pm

I am of the opinion that the "one exam which covers all subjects" , should scare the sh£t out of any student studying toward an IF rating. Just Law and Procedures is enough to keep one seriously entertained - even if they dropped all the "commercial " law bits, procedures keep the students very busy weeks on end....

But the theory does not concern me that much - I think every prospective IF pilot must fly in IMC(with an experienced instructor), before they start towards the rating. And I would include some steep turns, spiral dive recoveries, stall-/spin recovery, induced spatial disorientation, vertigo, etc. That should give the prospective student a better idea of what they can encounter - and if they really want to go there.
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Re: New forum - INSTRUMENT FLYING

Unread post by Hop Harrigan » Sun Apr 10, 2016 9:22 pm

That's a novel concept...scare the pants off a prospective student wishing to improve his skills and then see if he still wants to go ahead.
I did the IF flight training the conventional way, learn to become at home with the AH, then become at ease with steep turns under the hood, then recovery from unusual attitudes.
These are good learning practices of building skills and confidence, not scaring the pants off someone who then decides against improving his skills and then waiting for the next CFIT report!
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Re: New forum - INSTRUMENT FLYING

Unread post by Brand » Sun Apr 10, 2016 11:46 pm

Don't get me wrong - I am all for the correct IF training. But I meet a LOT of guys who are basically weekend pilots and then tell me they want to do their IF rating for "that once or twice a year when I want to handle some IMC into Plett..." or something like that.

My usual response is that they definitely should do the training - then they would most likely know that having a current IF rating does not make one immune against CFIT. I can quickly think of at least three recent CFIT fatalities where they were very current, IF rated, professional pilots. I am working with somebody at the moment, that owns a new light twin, has a PPL, around 700 hours, and flies longish distances at least twice a week - he started his CPL (though he really wants an IF rating) a few weeks ago, soon after he one day entered IMC using his auto-pilot and GPS. After about 30 minutes of flying unplanned IMC , he got scared and diverted successfully. When I went through the flight with him, we established he flew way below the legal IFR requirements - the high ground was kind to him on the day. But the fact that he decided to get himself in that position scared him more than anything...

CFIT accidents usually does not happen because of a lack of flight training - more likely because the pilots make bad decisions based on inferior spatial orientation. And that is where we have a huge training opportunity in SA - certainly in comparison to IF training in the USA. That's why I voted affirmative regarding your forum suggestion - I am hoping it will make a positive contribution.

Recovering in IMC from unusual attitudes that one does not expect (unlike while training under the hood) - well that is another discussion altogether....

Anyway - just my 2c's worth.
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Re: New forum - INSTRUMENT FLYING

Unread post by Iceberg » Mon Apr 11, 2016 9:12 am

Regarding the 'scaring tactics' as mentioned by Brand - this can be useful to bring home the realities of flying in real IMC - especially alone.

I did my rating mostly under the 'hood' and on the simulator.

When I started flying in real IMC by myself I got spatial disorientation - and I was not well prepared for it!
When you do your PPL you have to do 15 hours solo minimum.
Yet you don't need to do solo flights in IMC in an aircraft before getting the IF rating.
So your initial solo flights (no IF rated co-pilot or instructor) into IMC can be dangerous or even fatal if you are not well prepared to handle spatial dis-orientation.
I almost always get spatial disorientation in IMC - mostly the leans - but I have learnt to ignore it and concentrate on scanning and flying by the panel. The disorientation then clears after a while.

I support a separate IF forum. Many other forums are visited by only a few hundred - Aerobatics, Gyros, RC etc. An IF forum would probably be more popular however, because it will attract anyone that intends to go places in an aircraft - which probably includes most pilots on Avcom.
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Re: New forum - INSTRUMENT FLYING

Unread post by boneman » Mon Apr 11, 2016 9:34 am

Iceberg:
I almost always get spatial disorientation in IMC - mostly the leans - but I have learnt to ignore it and concentrate on scanning and flying by the panel. The disorientation then clears after a while.

Curious to know if you found an improvement when breathing supplemental oxygen.
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Re: New forum - INSTRUMENT FLYING

Unread post by Iceberg » Mon Apr 11, 2016 9:52 am

boneman wrote:Iceberg:
I almost always get spatial disorientation in IMC - mostly the leans - but I have learnt to ignore it and concentrate on scanning and flying by the panel. The disorientation then clears after a while.

Curious to know if you found an improvement when breathing supplemental oxygen.
I find this at any altitude - e.g. after taking off at Margate and climbing into cloud with the bases at not much more than 2000ft AMSL.
Out of interest - I have a pulse oximeter and I measured 91% saturation at 11000ft recently which is still OK. So it will have an effect at high altitude, but not much down low I would think.

I find I get it when I get distracted from the instruments by going in and out of cloud. This causes increasing and decreasing light in the cabin. I usually look up to see what is going on outside and then instinctively try to fly using visual cues - which causes the aircraft to turn to one side - causing the confusion.
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Re: New forum - INSTRUMENT FLYING

Unread post by boneman » Mon Apr 11, 2016 10:35 am

Iceberg
Thanks for the reply.
I found that when I am consciously breathing deep in and out even at 11500 my sats increase to 90 when not on oxygen. When not concentrating or getting distracted the sats drop to 86, which corrects to 91 on supplemental oxygen.

Again agree that a dedicated forum could tap from a vast pool of experience.

Topic for new forum: spatial disorientation triggered by changing light intensity or something in that line.
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Re: New forum - INSTRUMENT FLYING

Unread post by roadrunner » Mon Apr 11, 2016 10:38 am

When i did my commercial if training if the weather was ifr we didnt fly.I found it strange and asked the instructor why.He said that the school didnt allow it.My reasoning is that it would have been great to actual fly in imc,i am qualified but have never ventured into the "real world".Do other schools allow training in real ifr conditions
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Re: New forum - INSTRUMENT FLYING

Unread post by Brand » Mon Apr 11, 2016 11:00 am

Iceberg wrote:Regarding the 'scaring tactics' as mentioned by Brand - this can be useful to bring home the realities of flying in real IMC - especially alone.

I did my rating mostly under the 'hood' and on the simulator.

When I started flying in real IMC by myself I got spatial disorientation - and I was not well prepared for it!
When you do your PPL you have to do 15 hours solo minimum.
Yet you don't need to do solo flights in IMC in an aircraft before getting the IF rating.
So your initial solo flights (no IF rated co-pilot or instructor) into IMC can be dangerous or even fatal if you are not well prepared to handle spatial dis-orientation.
I almost always get spatial disorientation in IMC - mostly the leans - but I have learnt to ignore it and concentrate on scanning and flying by the panel. The disorientation then clears after a while.

I support a separate IF forum. Many other forums are visited by only a few hundred - Aerobatics, Gyros, RC etc. An IF forum would probably be more popular however, because it will attract anyone that intends to go places in an aircraft - which probably includes most pilots on Avcom.
One of the best posts on Avcom yet, Iceberg - a man who's faced the IMC "demons" for years by himself....
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Re: New forum - INSTRUMENT FLYING

Unread post by Brand » Mon Apr 11, 2016 11:20 am

roadrunner wrote:When i did my commercial if training if the weather was ifr we didnt fly.I found it strange and asked the instructor why.He said that the school didnt allow it.My reasoning is that it would have been great to actual fly in imc,i am qualified but have never ventured into the "real world".Do other schools allow training in real ifr conditions
This is probably because many instructors at the schools have never instructed in IMC :twisted: and the school owners are often well aware of the dangers involved (often being current ATPL's) - that's why I did my IF training with a 7000 hour instructor who had no problem training me in IMC and mostly at night (the only time I had available at the time). I will never forget his words: "Any idiot can learn how to hand-fly procedures under the hood, do rate 1 turns and climb and descend at 500ft/min with an instructor on-board - very few experienced pilots can consistently handle any abnormal attitudes or recognize spatial disorientation in real IMC."

Reading GL's latest write-up on the subject in the latest SA Flyer, I was really struck by the last paragraph - it's well worth reading.....
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Re: New forum - INSTRUMENT FLYING

Unread post by Hop Harrigan » Mon Apr 11, 2016 11:36 am

Hi,
That sounds pretty significant!
So perhaps we should be pushing to have the training methods changed. Possibly add a requirement that a part of the 40 hrs IF training must be done in IMC or if you can't find a cloud, it must be done at night.
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Re: Instrument flying training

Unread post by Hop Harrigan » Mon Apr 11, 2016 1:00 pm

Mods....
So what happened to p1 of this thread and the Poll?
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Re: Instrument flying training

Unread post by WillemGouws » Mon Apr 11, 2016 3:45 pm

I am interested in the new IF rating and I welcome the consolidation of all the 7 subjects into something that is perhaps more relevant to a PPL wishing to upgrade to the IF rating. The 40 hours practical makes sense, and I assume one will get actual IMC training in those 40 hours.(or insist on it)

My question relates to NTCA aircraft and the IF rating. Many of us fly NTCA aircraft equipped with Garmin, Dynon and MGL equipment, which is not certified. The NTCA pilots must surely be part of the target market for the "more accessible" IF rating?

Will you be able to do any of the practical training in an NTCA aircraft?
Will I be able to use the IF rating in my NTCA aircraft? (and what is the minimum equipment list).
Calle, please assist in terms of your experience?

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