Plettenberg Bay Cloudbreak

RNAV, GNSS, GPSS. Your place to discuss all aspects pertaining to Instrument Flying.

Moderator: Moderators

Upthere
Lining Up
Posts: 114
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2014 10:26 am
Closest Airfield: FAOR
Location: Anywhere
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Plettenberg Bay Cloudbreak

Unread post by Upthere » Sat Sep 24, 2016 7:20 am

All good and well saving a few minutes.
Question: How do you confirm your distance from the NDB without a DME?
You would first have to pass over the NDB and then descend to 3500' in the hold.
Fly, fly, fly, fly...
User avatar
AOYB
1k poster
1k poster
Posts: 1722
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 10:15 am
Location: neither here nor there
Has liked: 4 times
Been liked: 8 times

Re: Plettenberg Bay Cloudbreak

Unread post by AOYB » Tue Sep 27, 2016 8:10 am

I'm not quite sure how it could be any clearer.

You have a few options when approaching an airfield (not just plett, I'm talking in general)

VFR
Fly in VMC (with all that implies about distance from cloud and visibility)

IFR
1) Fly the full procedure, or
2) get radar vectors onto the final approach
3) have the airfield in sight and establish yourself on final, possibly going out of controlled airspace while maintaining VMC (VFR distance from cloud etc) (VMC approach)
4) be able to navigate with reference to terrain and omit a part of the procedure while staying in controlled airspace, cloud above Initial Approach Alt.

Those are the options the law provides. For everything else just ask; is it safe, and is it legal?
My 2 cents
I am the last Cylon...
jalopysled
Taxiing
Posts: 72
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 1:00 pm
Closest Airfield: FACT
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Plettenberg Bay Cloudbreak

Unread post by jalopysled » Sat Oct 08, 2016 2:41 am

SandPiper wrote:Ja...but....

vmc and visual apptoaches are typically flown after breaking cloud.
This scenario is exactly the opposite.

I agree with hatman, but to pick the flypoo from the pepper, Brand is correct.

Ok, now I am confused. :roll:
Hi SandPiper,
My 2c worth on the interpretation of the law;
Consider that these procedures were designed based on the fact that a pilot will arrive in Plett with the most basic of instruments and equipment on board to conduct the approach (i.e no GPS). So the only range information you have is when you pass overhead the beacon and the needle flicks you know you're overhead.

Is there anything wrong with descending to cloud tops and then continuing the approach as per the procedure? Well except that it isn't legal.
My interpretation of this comes from the parts of the law that cover
1) Minimum flight altitudes
2) Compliance with IFR
3) VMC and Visual approaches (as mentioned earlier, from the AIP's).
Both a VMC and a Visual approach require visual contact with the ground (in fact - VMC approach requires ceiling above MSA). The fact that you can't see the high terrain because it's below the cloud tops does not mean that you have visual contact, and there are no bonus points for a process of elimination.

So is it wrong? Well, yes - the regulating authorities aren't too progressive with technological advances in navigation. So the correct way would be to follow the chart to the letter - join overhead at initial approach altitude/MSA if higher, descend in holding, etc etc etc... Until the CAA provides a "run-of-the-mill-C210-Garmin-430 GPS approach" - but I wouldn't hold my breath for anything like this in our lifetime!
User avatar
Brand
1k poster
1k poster
Posts: 1724
Joined: Tue May 08, 2007 4:07 pm
Closest Airfield: ORTIA
Location: Johannesburg, Kempton Park
Has liked: 6 times
Been liked: 35 times

Re: Plettenberg Bay Cloudbreak

Unread post by Brand » Sat Oct 08, 2016 4:51 pm

In my mind, the type of radio equipment for a LEGAL IF approach is not a big deal - be that an NDB, VOR or GPS approach. Every ILS has at least two NDB's as well - and for good reason. What can get the pilot into trouble is the lack of disciplined thinking...
Attitude determines Altitude - in Flying and in Life........

Brand Wessels
0735913907
jalopysled
Taxiing
Posts: 72
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 1:00 pm
Closest Airfield: FACT
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Plettenberg Bay Cloudbreak

Unread post by jalopysled » Sat Oct 08, 2016 6:26 pm

2xNDB's?
User avatar
happyskipper
Tree Tousand
Tree Tousand
Posts: 3751
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 6:55 pm
Closest Airfield: FQNC
Location: In the cloud
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 1 time

Re: Plettenberg Bay Cloudbreak

Unread post by happyskipper » Sat Oct 08, 2016 6:44 pm

Quite apart from the approach procedure, you asked about flying in VMC down to the cloud layer.
Question is; may I descend below the MSA in VMC while still 10nm out (I am still on an IF Flight Plan) down to the top of the cloud layer to start the approach or am I required to carry out 2 holds (10 minutes circling at -500'/min) to get down to 3500' ?
Is the definition of VMC not "above no more than 3 eighths cloud"?

I am confused?
Mark 8)
AKA "happyslipper", "slappykipper" ... etc.. :lol:
User avatar
AOYB
1k poster
1k poster
Posts: 1722
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 10:15 am
Location: neither here nor there
Has liked: 4 times
Been liked: 8 times

Re: Plettenberg Bay Cloudbreak

Unread post by AOYB » Sat Oct 08, 2016 8:06 pm

It's not that complicated. I did give all the options available to an IF flight plan aircraft in one of the posts above.

You can make it as complicated as you like, but legally there aren't that many options available.
If in doubt, imagine you are standing in court and have to justify what you did. Can you comply with VMC or visual approach criteria? Did you fly the approach as charted (or a procedure that's it approved by the commissioner). If not, where in the law do you justify your actions?

We fly procedures precisely because they will work 100% of the time. We "cheat" on the procedures 99% of the time safely, but the 1% is what hurts us.
I am the last Cylon...
User avatar
Hop Harrigan
1k poster
1k poster
Posts: 1012
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 7:55 pm
Has liked: 3 times
Been liked: 19 times

Re: Plettenberg Bay Cloudbreak

Unread post by Hop Harrigan » Sat Oct 08, 2016 8:22 pm

Hi Marc,
I have to agree with you. The law seems to be pretty clear that you may not descend below the MSA, however judging from the seeming confusion on this issue, there are lots of pilots who are doing just that.
Hop
There is no gravity...the Earth sucks
User avatar
Brand
1k poster
1k poster
Posts: 1724
Joined: Tue May 08, 2007 4:07 pm
Closest Airfield: ORTIA
Location: Johannesburg, Kempton Park
Has liked: 6 times
Been liked: 35 times

Re: Plettenberg Bay Cloudbreak

Unread post by Brand » Sun Oct 09, 2016 2:10 am

jalopysled wrote:2xNDB's?
Yes. Often the OM and MM.
Attitude determines Altitude - in Flying and in Life........

Brand Wessels
0735913907
jalopysled
Taxiing
Posts: 72
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 1:00 pm
Closest Airfield: FACT
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Plettenberg Bay Cloudbreak

Unread post by jalopysled » Sun Oct 09, 2016 2:59 pm

Ah! If indeed you still do find markers... but remember you can't use a marker for tracking cause they broadcast vertically
SandPiper
Frequent AvComer
Posts: 725
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2008 12:15 pm
Location: Swakopmund
Has liked: 3 times
Been liked: 7 times

Re: Plettenberg Bay Cloudbreak

Unread post by SandPiper » Wed Oct 12, 2016 7:07 am

Brand wrote:
jalopysled wrote:2xNDB's?
Yes. Often the OM and MM.
Most ILS's are equiped with fan markers only, or dme checks on the way down.

In fact, our A330's (new), have no ADF's to tune.
User avatar
Brand
1k poster
1k poster
Posts: 1724
Joined: Tue May 08, 2007 4:07 pm
Closest Airfield: ORTIA
Location: Johannesburg, Kempton Park
Has liked: 6 times
Been liked: 35 times

Re: Plettenberg Bay Cloudbreak

Unread post by Brand » Wed Oct 12, 2016 1:49 pm

Well - we are slightly off topic now, but from a technical point of view - which radio navigation instruments use non-directional beacons?
Attitude determines Altitude - in Flying and in Life........

Brand Wessels
0735913907
Globemaster
Engine full power confirmed
Posts: 175
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:11 pm
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Plettenberg Bay Cloudbreak

Unread post by Globemaster » Thu Oct 13, 2016 6:03 pm

NDB signals are received by an:
ADF (Automatic Direction Finder) and your Marker beacons (Outer, Middle and Inner)
All systems are go!
User avatar
Brand
1k poster
1k poster
Posts: 1724
Joined: Tue May 08, 2007 4:07 pm
Closest Airfield: ORTIA
Location: Johannesburg, Kempton Park
Has liked: 6 times
Been liked: 35 times

Re: Plettenberg Bay Cloudbreak

Unread post by Brand » Fri Oct 14, 2016 4:34 pm

Yes, I think we all know that. But which other aviation radio navigation equipment use NDB's....
Attitude determines Altitude - in Flying and in Life........

Brand Wessels
0735913907
User avatar
Hop Harrigan
1k poster
1k poster
Posts: 1012
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 7:55 pm
Has liked: 3 times
Been liked: 19 times

Re: Plettenberg Bay Cloudbreak

Unread post by Hop Harrigan » Sat Oct 15, 2016 9:03 am

OK, I give up...
Hop
There is no gravity...the Earth sucks

Return to “Instrument Flying”