How to log IF hours?

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RoedolfMinnaar
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How to log IF hours?

Unread post by RoedolfMinnaar » Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:28 pm

Hi everyone!
I'm at the point in my career where Im flying bigger, pressurized aircraft. With this comes the big question of how to log my IF hours because everyone has a different story.
1.Do you log IF only if you have flown into actual IMC weather?
2. Do you log IF if you are above clouds?
3. Do you log IF when passing the highest VFR level?
There's obviously a huge difference between flying actual IF and flying VFR at FL270, but what is the general way of logging IF hours and what is the accepted way when it comes to the guys that will interview me in the future etc.
Thanks in Advance!
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Re: How to log IF hours?

Unread post by Romeo E.T. » Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:28 pm

RoedolfMinnaar wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:28 pm

1.Do you log IF only if you have flown into actual IMC weather?
thats the one
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Re: How to log IF hours?

Unread post by Vcrit » Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:52 pm

The confusion between IFR and IMC exists. To bring some clarity the highest VFR flight level is FL 195. It may be VMC to FL 450 but you will have to have an Instrument rating to fly above level 195.

The law states

"The pilot controlling an aircraft under actual or simulated IMC solely by reference to instruments and without external reference points must log that time as instrument flight time"
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Re: How to log IF hours?

Unread post by DipStick » Sun Dec 09, 2018 7:40 pm

Logging of flight time
61.01.8
Instrument flight time
(11) The pilot controlling an aircraft under actual or simulated IMC solely by reference to instruments and without external reference points must log that time as instrument flight time.
(12) An instructor conducting instrument flight training or an examiner conducting a skill or proficiency instrument test must log as instrument flight time all flight time in actual (not simulated) IMC.
Flight time as design
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Re: How to log IF hours?

Unread post by Orthin Opter » Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:20 am

DipStick wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 7:40 pm
Logging of flight time
61.01.8
Instrument flight time
(11) The pilot controlling an aircraft under actual or simulated IMC solely by reference to instruments and without external reference points must log that time as instrument flight time.
(12) An instructor conducting instrument flight training or an examiner conducting a skill or proficiency instrument test must log as instrument flight time all flight time in actual (not simulated) IMC.
Flight time as design
61.01.8(11) is accepted by most to mean when the pilot is actually manipulating the controls. So as soon as you engage the auto pilot, you stop logging instrument time even if in IMC because the auto pilot is then controlling the aircraft. (12) for instructor makes sense as he has to ensure the guy manipulating the controls, maintains control of the aircraft, so instructor has to maintain his instrument scan in IMC. In simulated conditions he would be looking out the window.
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Re: How to log IF hours?

Unread post by wysiwyg » Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:52 am

"11) The pilot controlling an aircraft under actual or simulated IMC solely by reference to instruments and without external reference points must log that time as instrument flight time."

I take that as hand flying and autopilot. I typically log .1 to .3 per flight depending on the conditions.
Btw in our ops you can only hand fly in Vmc.
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Re: How to log IF hours?

Unread post by Airwayfreak » Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:59 am

Orthin Opter wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:20 am

61.01.8(11) is accepted by most to mean when the pilot is actually manipulating the controls. So as soon as you engage the auto pilot, you stop logging instrument time even if in IMC because the auto pilot is then controlling the aircraft.
I cannot say I have ever heard that argument. The AP is not the PIC. I go with wysiwyg and 0,1 and 0,3
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Re: How to log IF hours?

Unread post by Aquila » Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:45 am

Airwayfreak wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:59 am
Orthin Opter wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:20 am

61.01.8(11) is accepted by most to mean when the pilot is actually manipulating the controls. So as soon as you engage the auto pilot, you stop logging instrument time even if in IMC because the auto pilot is then controlling the aircraft.
I cannot say I have ever heard that argument. The AP is not the PIC. I go with wysiwyg and 0,1 and 0,3
Yep because if the PF is doing a CAT 3B Autoland approach and only disconnects the AP after the roll out he still is going to log the IF time. Don’t think it has much to do with the AP on or not...
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Re: How to log IF hours?

Unread post by wysiwyg » Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:11 am

"....Yep because if the PF is doing a CAT 3B Autoland approach and only disconnects the AP after the roll out he still is going to log the IF time. Don’t think it has much to do with the AP on or not..."

I would go on to say that in a monitored approach or any 2 crew ops, both pilots should log the time. It is an integrated team effort that requires planning, monitoring, reaction etc by both pilots.
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Re: How to log IF hours?

Unread post by Iceberg » Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:30 pm

So if I practise an approach in VMC conditions, but I keep my head down in the cockpit and don’t look out the window, I can log it. It fits the reg: I only used instruments and simulated IMC by not looking outside.
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Re: How to log IF hours?

Unread post by wysiwyg » Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:19 pm

Iceberg wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:30 pm
So if I practise an approach in VMC conditions, but I keep my head down in the cockpit and don’t look out the window, I can log it. It fits the reg: I only used instruments and simulated IMC by not looking outside.
I reckon so. As long you are under radar control or have a safety pilot (or what ever it's called now-a-days). Note: see further explanation in my next post
Last edited by wysiwyg on Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How to log IF hours?

Unread post by Iceberg » Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:59 pm

wysiwyg wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:19 pm
Iceberg wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:30 pm
So if I practise an approach in VMC conditions, but I keep my head down in the cockpit and don’t look out the window, I can log it. It fits the reg: I only used instruments and simulated IMC by not looking outside.
I reckon so. As long you are under radar control or have a safety pilot (or what ever it's called now-a-days).
Radar is not required for many approaches. If I am current and on an IF flight plan, in contact with ATC, the safety pilot will not be needed either.
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Re: How to log IF hours?

Unread post by wysiwyg » Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:15 pm

Iceberg wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:59 pm
wysiwyg wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:19 pm
Iceberg wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:30 pm
So if I practise an approach in VMC conditions, but I keep my head down in the cockpit and don’t look out the window, I can log it. It fits the reg: I only used instruments and simulated IMC by not looking outside.
I reckon so. As long you are under radar control or have a safety pilot (or what ever it's called now-a-days).
Radar is not required for many approaches. If I am current and on an IF flight plan, in contact with ATC, the safety pilot will not be needed either.
I was thinking more in terms of not hitting an obstacle or another aircraft etc. ATC as you say will be a key element. However there are some cloud break procedures far away from ATC.
I was being cautious. I don't want to be quoted out of context when someone causes a hassle.
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Re: How to log IF hours?

Unread post by wysiwyg » Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:33 pm

Roedolf, just to clarify the logbook entries;

My latest logbook has:
1. A column for IFR. On an IFR flt plan log take-off to land,
2. A column for actual instrument time. Log the time on the approach. I generally log 0.1 but have logged up to 0.3 if applicable.
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Re: How to log IF hours?

Unread post by Trent772B » Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:21 am

Try a Perth-Joburg or a São Paulo-Joburg through the night with no moon and see how long you can actually fly solely referencing the instruments. That said, most airline pilots I know don’t take it very seriously. In my 14000 hrs of flying, no one has ever asked me how many IF hours I have.

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