ATPL (H) skills test with Aeroplane hours

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Hughes
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ATPL (H) skills test with Aeroplane hours

Unread post by Hughes » Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:31 am

Good day everyone.

I am wanting to do my Helicopter ATPL initial test in the coming weeks and I have a question regarding the night hours. Perhaps someone who is also dual rated (A+H licences) can help.

I have 35 night hours on helicopter and 50 night hours on Aeroplane. These are PIC and Co- Pilot hours (if only CAA recognised dual hours as well :roll: )

61.07.1 Requirements for an Airline Transport Pilot Licence (Aeroplane) subpart 4 (G) states;
Up to 50 percent of the 1 500 hours and each of the requirements specified in sub-regulations (2) (a), (b), (c) (d) and (e) above may be completed in helicopters.
(a) to (e) are just the make up of hours as required
Subpart (e) states; 100 hours shall be night flight time as pilot-in-command or as co-pilot. - So this means of the 100 night hours required for an Aeroplane ATPL, Up to 50% may be on helicopters.

Now for my questions ---
61.08.1 Requirements for an Airline Transport Pilot Licence (Helicopter);
Subpart 2(d) states 50 hours night flight time as pilot-in-command or as co-pilot.
Subpart (4) states Up to 50 percent of the 1 500 hours may be completed in aeroplanes. - There is no further reference to the make up of hours such as stated in the aeroplane part above. Whats up with that?? Why the difference from whats stated above??

Does this mean in order to do my ATPL (H) initial, I have to complete a full 50 night hours in helicopters??
[What if the roles were reversed and I had an ATPL (A), flying for an airline and had say 200 hours at night. I cannot believe the CAA will still ask for a full 50 night hours on helicopters to get an ATPL (H)]

I noted on both A and H ATPL test forms, it asks for Night Hours (PIC and Co- Pilot) but does not stipulate Helicopter or Aeroplane Night Hours? Yet the law on the Aeroplane side, allows helicopter hours to be used... With CAA, we cannot assume anything, but in this case, what is correct and what isn't??

Any help or advice on this issue will be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks
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krobarza
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Re: ATPL (H) skills test with Aeroplane hours

Unread post by krobarza » Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:27 am

The form doesn't ask in which category your night hours were done. Night hours are night hours.
Hughes
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Re: ATPL (H) skills test with Aeroplane hours

Unread post by Hughes » Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:48 am

Hi Krobarza

Thanks for the reply. My thoughts exactly and I agree with you when it comes to the form. I just dont want to assume anything when it comes to the law so I need a definite response from CAA (awaiting an email reply) or some insight from someone that has been in my position as it stands.

Best regards
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Hughes
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Re: ATPL (H) skills test with Aeroplane hours

Unread post by Hughes » Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:45 pm

In case anyone was wondering, for future reference:

Even though it doesnt state it under the Helicopter ATPL part, CAA recognise Aeroplane night hours in the ratio of 2 night hours = 1 Heli night hour. So if you have 25 Heli night hours and 50 FW night hours, then with the ratio, you meet the 50hr requirement for a Heli ATPL.
The form, as discussed above, does not stipulate Heli or FW Night hours. You put your grand total there... However, CAA want a career summary that states the night hours in the 2 categories so that they can work out the ratio etc.

Thought I'd share the feedback.
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Cloudspeed
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Re: ATPL (H) skills test with Aeroplane hours

Unread post by Cloudspeed » Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:26 pm

Hughes, this is valuable feedback, thanks for sharing. In your discussions with CAA, did the issue of validity of the fixed-wing license come up at all in order to transfer your FW night hours across to the ATPL (H) minimum threshold? ie, if you have the required night hours on fixed wing, but your FW license has lapsed, can the hours still be converted? Assuming Night Rating was achieved on both RW and FW, with RW being current. Rabbit hole is too deep to find the answer with a casual glance at the regs, but I suspect they'd want a valid license on both for the credits to count. Soon it will be my question to answer.

Good luck with your test.
CS
Hughes
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Re: ATPL (H) skills test with Aeroplane hours

Unread post by Hughes » Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:11 am

Hi CS

Unfortunately I cannot give a definite answer to your licence question. With my thinking - the law does not state whether the FW licence must be current or not so I would think it should not be a problem. After all, hours logged are hours logged... however, this you will have to follow up with the Licence Officials at CAA. (Never assume anything with the law, no matter how "grey" the area) With my request/query, they were actually helpful and on the ball. Id suggest that you give them a call (all their numbers are listed- Mr Gaba was the gent I dealt with and he was great) and ask about it.
In my case, my FW CPL was current so I didnt have this issue/worry.

All the best.
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krobarza
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Re: ATPL (H) skills test with Aeroplane hours

Unread post by krobarza » Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:20 am

The law does not stipulate that you have to have a FW license to be credited with the hours.
Hughes
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Re: ATPL (H) skills test with Aeroplane hours

Unread post by Hughes » Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:46 am

krobarza wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:20 am
The law does not stipulate that you have to have a FW license to be credited with the hours.
You will have to have had a FW Licence in terms of logging the hours, as they need to be PIC or Co-Pilot... However, if your statement refers to having a valid/current FW licence in order to be credited, then I understand what you are saying. I have had a look at the law (61.08 in the CARs) and yes, there is no mention that the Aeroplane licence must be current or not.

So for reference to "Cloudspeed", you should be in the clear for that one.

Just a question, in the law it states under subpart (d) have, within the previous 60 months, completed a multi-crew cooperation course. How are the guys going about doing that as I'm guessing its an expensive exercise? I fortunately had my MCC from my FW side so this wasn't an issue for me. Its rather alarming that they want the MCC for a Heli ATPL, I was surprised at that one...
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Re: ATPL (H) skills test with Aeroplane hours

Unread post by Choppaboy » Wed May 08, 2019 3:18 am

Hughes wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:46 am
krobarza wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:20 am
The law does not stipulate that you have to have a FW license to be credited with the hours.
You will have to have had a FW Licence in terms of logging the hours, as they need to be PIC or Co-Pilot... However, if your statement refers to having a valid/current FW licence in order to be credited, then I understand what you are saying. I have had a look at the law (61.08 in the CARs) and yes, there is no mention that the Aeroplane licence must be current or not.

So for reference to "Cloudspeed", you should be in the clear for that one.

Just a question, in the law it states under subpart (d) have, within the previous 60 months, completed a multi-crew cooperation course. How are the guys going about doing that as I'm guessing its an expensive exercise? I fortunately had my MCC from my FW side so this wasn't an issue for me. Its rather alarming that they want the MCC for a Heli ATPL, I was surprised at that one...
Hi there ... the MCC requirement for the ATPL (H) is ops normal as the license holder is now most likely going to fly in a Multi crew environment on the medium To heavy helicopters. Most companies in Ems / offshore type work want Captain and copilot for the IFR just like the airliners do ... plus workload distribution ... hence the MCC requirement

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