Cheetah - ab initio PPL?

The versatile 3-axis Microlight from Rainbow Aircraft, manufactured completetly in South Africa.

Moderator: Moderators

Obie Gunobie
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Cheetah - ab initio PPL?

Unread post by Obie Gunobie » Sat Apr 11, 2009 7:18 pm

Hi guys.
Can you do your ab initio work to PPL on the Cheetah? I know it was advertised as "certified fo PPL training", just want to know if this is still the case...
User avatar
Stephan van Tonder
1k poster
1k poster
Posts: 1898
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 2:31 pm
Closest Airfield: Petit
Location: Putfontein Benoni
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 9 times

Re: Cheetah - ab initio PPL?

Unread post by Stephan van Tonder » Sun Apr 12, 2009 4:00 pm

yes use code x254
rod smith
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Cheetah - ab initio PPL?

Unread post by rod smith » Sun Apr 12, 2009 8:10 pm

Obie

I am out of my depth on this one and will bow to whatever Stephan says, as he has shown himself to be a most knowledgeable contributor to the forum. I have an old list of X and Z codes and it lists X254 as being a Wilkie 08, an a/c I have never heard of.

My confusion comes from the Springs fellows, namely, Airborne Sport using the code Z194, a microlight code. I know that CAA approves the Cheetah for PPL work (See CAA general questions forum.) But I am uncertain of the protocol here. (Can you shed more light on this one , Stephan!)

Rod Smith
User avatar
Stephan van Tonder
1k poster
1k poster
Posts: 1898
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 2:31 pm
Closest Airfield: Petit
Location: Putfontein Benoni
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 9 times

Re: Cheetah - ab initio PPL?

Unread post by Stephan van Tonder » Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:07 pm

Cheetah was registered as either PPL or microlight - the PPl code being x254 and the microlight code z194. Strictly speaking the 912 cheetah would never really have made it under the 450 kg weight with 2 people and fuel on board but becuase there was no LSA the CAA sort of turned a blind eye. I have heard quite a few times in the last year that the x and z codes will be dropped at some point and that they will become irrelevant. But currently if you fly it under a MPl or LSA license then use z194 and if you fly it with PPL then use x254. At some pint in future it will simply become LSA.
Obie Gunobie
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Cheetah - ab initio PPL?

Unread post by Obie Gunobie » Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:27 pm

Thanks guys, I appreciate your input. Having flown the Cheetah I do believe that it makes for a great trainer, ie your feet learn quickly not to fall asleep! A fun machine to fly.
User avatar
haXor
Finals (unmanned)
Posts: 405
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:53 am
Closest Airfield: FAGC
Location: Gauteng South Africa
Has liked: 6 times
Been liked: 0

Re: Cheetah - ab initio PPL?

Unread post by haXor » Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:06 pm

I have a PPL and would love to get a cheetah rating. I might be interested in buying in the near future.

Where can I get a rating in the GP area, and possibly some Hire and Fly time.
Jabiru J430
Straight and Level
Vusa
User avatar
Stephan van Tonder
1k poster
1k poster
Posts: 1898
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 2:31 pm
Closest Airfield: Petit
Location: Putfontein Benoni
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 9 times

Re: Cheetah - ab initio PPL?

Unread post by Stephan van Tonder » Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:45 pm

Rating you can get at Microlight adventures(Petit) - Andy Kaspersen. www.microlightadventures.co.za
Andy 082 651 7317
Hire & fly - mmmm - nowhere that I know of. Perhaps Circus - Russel Bird
User avatar
AndyCAP
Frequent AvComer
Posts: 753
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 9:22 am
Location: FAFK, FACT
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Cheetah - ab initio PPL?

Unread post by AndyCAP » Wed Aug 12, 2009 4:26 pm

Stephan, perhaps you can confirm my understanding which was based on discussions I had with Rainbow a few years ago?

my understanding was that one of the two codes you refer to
the PPl code being x254 and the microlight code z194.
are linked to an aircraft at registration. i.e. if a Cheetah e.g. ZU-XXX is registered as a z194 it legally is a microlight and has a MAUW of 450kg (even though its airframe is Identical to one that could be registered as a X254). So legally a PPL (with suitable conversion onto Cheetah) can fly ZU-XXX, but may not book PPL hours on it since its registered as a z194. He may only book MPL hours on it (which dont count 1:1 wrt Hour building). AFAIK it would be fraud to fly the hours on ZU-XXX and log them as PPL hours by claiming its an X254. THis should be easliy identifyable when comparing the registration in the logbook to the registration records of the aircraft.

However if you have cheetah ZU-YYY registered as a X254, the PPL can fly it (with the same cheetah conversion - assuming they have the same/smaller engine size) and book PPL hours at a 1:1 ratio. In addition the MAUW is increased to 560kg, but a MPL may not fly it.

As you say, using the larger engines (912UL/ULS, Jabiru 2200 etc) will practically put a Cheetah over the 450kg limit when fully loaded. So if its registered as a z194, you would be flying illegally if your mass is over 450kg. This would not be a problem from a physical safety perspective ( the airframe is identical to a X254), but if you should have an oopsie under such circumstances - or kill yourself in it, your insurance will in all likelyhood find out and will most certainly not pay (there will be other consequences if you survive but your passenger not) :( .

I seem to recall that there were other restrictions that apply to the X254 registration - particularly regarding who may maintain the aircraft - but this may have only applied to Cheetahs used in flight schools??

I know I heard a different story from the Bantam agent (Bantam can also be registered for PPL hour building) and seem to recall that they only have one register code and can be used for both, but I may be mistaken?

Furthermore my understanding is that a PPL simply needs a conversion onto any cheetah (does not have to do an MPL) - As Rod (and many other blik pilots) has discovered this may need a few more hours to get used to since Cheetahs and other light /microlight aircraft are a lot more twitchy/sensitive than standard wichita iron.


I would really appreciate clarity on this whole subject, since I am a PPL and have been toying with the idea of getting a Cheetah or similar to make flying more affordable.

The cheetah may not be the best looking aircraft out there (I am not very fond of the newer tail shape and dorsal fin), but its certainly one of the most comfortable aircraft I have ever flown :wink: . To put this into context: at 6'7" and 250lbs, I tend to "put an aircraft on" as opposed to "get in" and cannot fit in many of the popular bliks. :(
rod smith
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Cheetah - ab initio PPL?

Unread post by rod smith » Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:52 am

So here we are , two MPLs and a PPL flying the same aircraft, with me recording X254 in my PPL logbook under "type" and the other two recording Z194. I don't need to build hours in any way, but am blithely flying with full disclosure to the insurers of the PPL and the NPL pilots using the same aircaft.

Are we out of line, now? What does Rainbow say?

Rod Smith
User avatar
AndyCAP
Frequent AvComer
Posts: 753
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 9:22 am
Location: FAFK, FACT
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Cheetah - ab initio PPL?

Unread post by AndyCAP » Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:36 pm

Rod - I dont mean to cause panic :oops: .Perhaps I am the only one who is confused about this? I simply want to clarify the issue.

The whole thing seems a bit absurd - particularly since the aircraft is identical. In my view there should be an additional criteria to determine if an aircraft can count to PPL hours (not just weight). By all accounts - including yours, the cheetah requires as much if not more skill to fly than a C172, surely this must count for something?

I see no reason why a cheetah under 450kg MAUW cannot be used by an MPL and PPL to book hours in their respective categories? In fact most 3 axis 'microlights' (eg. Bantam, thunderbird, CGS Eagle etc) should be in the same category. It does perhaps make sense that older 3 axis microlights such as quicksilver/basic2000/Mac CDL etc are too much of a microlight to qualify for PPL hours?

Perhaps the answer lies in a combination of minimum requirements based on a slow PPL type such as a J3 Cub e.g.:
[*]full 3 axis control (Ail, elevator & rudder)
[*]minimum empty weight = ???
[*]minimum power = 40 hp (Original J3 only had this for power)
[*]minimum cruise speed (to preclude true microlights)

Thoughts? Sorry if the latter is hijacking the thread a bit :oops:
User avatar
Steve
Fower Tousand
Fower Tousand
Posts: 4237
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 8:17 am
Closest Airfield: Wings Park
Location: East London, South Africa
Has liked: 15 times
Been liked: 14 times

Re: Cheetah - ab initio PPL?

Unread post by Steve » Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:47 pm

AndyCAP, you are quite correct....

If the aircraft is registered in the X category,then an NPL pilot MAY NOT fly the aircraft and all PPL hours flown are recorded 1:1
If the very same aircraft is registered in the Z category, than both the NPL and PPL pilots may fly it, but the PPL cannot record the hours as PPL 1:1, as they are flying the aircraft as an LSA as the higher license PPL covers the lower license MPL.
The same aircraft CANNOT be simultaneoulsy registered for both X and Z categories.
Steve Onions

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein
User avatar
AndyCAP
Frequent AvComer
Posts: 753
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 9:22 am
Location: FAFK, FACT
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Cheetah - ab initio PPL?

Unread post by AndyCAP » Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:12 pm

Thanks for that confirmation Steve.

Sorry for the implcation Rod (and others!) :oops: - but who cares - you still get to fly and as long as one is not trying to build PPL hours (which I gather you are not trying to do) this should not be a problem. If one is flying for fun - who cares what the hours are logged as. I firmly believe that one hour in a 582 cheetah will teach you just as much as an hour in a C172 under VFR. Yes there are differences particularly wrt landing technique, but I believe the cheetah (and other similar light types) can only improve one's flying.... at a MUCH more affordable rate.

It does however raise a few points to consider when buying a Cheetah. Your mission will determine what you register it as, but at the same time, it can limit you resale opportunities since the X category may not be flown legally by a MPL.

If one is a PPL flying a Z194 cheetah, I presume one would need a second (MPL) Logbook?

question: for a cheetah (or similar) weiging in at or under 450kg, how difficult/easy is it to re-register it as a Z (if it was an X) or visa versa? and how much will that cost?

similarly a cheetah over 450kg MAUW can only be registered as an X254 and thus only be flown by PPL?

Do similar rules apply to other aircraft which fall in this duel category (e.g. Bushbaby, Bantam?)
rod smith
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Cheetah - ab initio PPL?

Unread post by rod smith » Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:42 pm

Slowly, slowly I think we are beginning to get an understanding of all this.

As Steve Onions said, "The same aircraft CANNOT be simultaneoulsy registered for both X and Z categories."

So this would imply that I am making incorrect logbook entries, as I am recording my Cheetah flights as X254. What I should be doing is using the Z category and making my logbook entries accordingly, based on the fact that my higher licence (PPL) covers me, even though I cannot log one-for-one for purposes of a licence higher than a PPL. But I presume that I do still record my flights in my logbook exactly as I would any other (e.g. the Mooney) under hours flown as they were flown, i.e. one hour in the logbook for one hour flown.

Is this correct, Steve?

Rod Smith
User avatar
Steve
Fower Tousand
Fower Tousand
Posts: 4237
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 8:17 am
Closest Airfield: Wings Park
Location: East London, South Africa
Has liked: 15 times
Been liked: 14 times

Re: Cheetah - ab initio PPL?

Unread post by Steve » Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:26 pm

Rod, this is a very pertinent aspect, because there is so much confusion regarding this topic. The principle is quite clear when put into perspective:-

1) The higher license covers a lower license: What this means is that the higher license (PPL) is sufficient to cover aircraft from a lower license (NPL), so long as they are type specific (I.e: 3-axis aircraft). The pilot still has to do a type conversion onto his/her license and this type conversion is based on proficiency. An NPL Instructor CAN ONLY do a PPL's type conversion on a Z registered aircraft and once done, the PPL's licence will be endorsed to fly that Z registered aircraft (Typically an LSA aircraft - In case you don't know, there are TWO classes of fixed wing aircraft in the NPL license : Conventional 3-axis control aircraft under 450kgs and conventional 3 axis control aircraft under 600kgs which requires an LSA conversion)

2) For instances where the exact same model of aircraft (Cheetah) has been registered as an X registered aircraft, it may ONLY be flown by a PPL pilot (and NOT an NPL pilot) and the type conversion has to be done by a PPL Instructor.

3) An aircraft can ONLY be registered as either an X (PPL) category or a Z (NPL) category aircraft in NTCA.

4) A PPL pilot who has an X type rating MAY NOT fly a Z rated aircraft UNLESS he/she has done a Z category type rating. What this means as an example, is that if a PPL pilot has done a type rating on a X registered Cheetah (X254), then he may NOT fly a Z registered Cheetah (Z194) until he/she has done a Z194 type rating.

Despite both the X254 and Z194 aircraft appearing as the same make and type model, it is extremely important as to how the aircraft is registered with CAA. An X registered aircraft CANNOT be flown by a Z194 type rated pilot.

Now the interesting thing is that the PPL pilot is able to do an X254 type conversion as well as a Z194 conversion, but he/she will need to have access to two Cheetah aircraft, one registered in the X category and one in the Z category to achieve this.

If the PPL pilot is X type rated and flies an X registered aircraft, then every single hour flown is PPL time. Any time flown on a Z registered aircraft (After having a Z194 type rating), is flown by that same PPL pilot as NPL LSA hours and the hours of no use towards a COM.

It is important that folk observe the legality, as personal insurance and aircraft insurance will be refuted if a pilot flies an aircraft illegally and it is illegal for an X type rated PPL pilot to fly a Z registered aircraft without first obtaining a Z194 type conversion (Using the Cheetah as an example again) - In the same fashion, it is illegal for a Z type rated NPL pilot to fly an X registered aircraft.

The confusion comes in with the statement "The higher license covers a lower license" - all this means is that a PPL pilot need not do an NPL license, so it does NOT indemnify the PPL pilot from doing a Z194 type conversion in the case of a Cheetah and Rod, if you have an X254 type conversion and have been flying a Z registered Cheetah, you have been a naughty boy and have done some illegal flying and need to get a Z194 type rating ASAP :wink:

I know you might be saying that this is such nonsense to differentiate between a Z and X registered aircraft, but don't forget, they might be the same make and model type, but the X registered aircraft may carry a higher MAUW which places it outside of the Z registration capability.

I hope this sheds some light..... :)
Steve Onions

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein
User avatar
Steve
Fower Tousand
Fower Tousand
Posts: 4237
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 8:17 am
Closest Airfield: Wings Park
Location: East London, South Africa
Has liked: 15 times
Been liked: 14 times

Re: Cheetah - ab initio PPL?

Unread post by Steve » Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:38 pm

AndyCAP wrote:If one is a PPL flying a Z194 cheetah, I presume one would need a second (MPL) Logbook?
Do similar rules apply to other aircraft which fall in this duel category (e.g. Bushbaby, Bantam?)
Considering that the hours do not count in PPL / COM hour building, a separate log book would be advisable..... A PPL pilot cannot call it an NPL logbook (National pilot license) unless they actually hold an NPL (There are several pilots in SA who hold both PPL and NPL's for the simple reason that an NPL instructor's rating CANNOT be endorsed on a Part 61 PPL license and therefore they have to hold a Part 62 NPL license for that (In years gone by, the microlight instructor's rating was endorsed on the PPL, but CAA discovered that it was not legal in CIAO standards and discontinued the practice when NPL part 62 came into effect.

There are many types in addition to the Cheetah that can be registered as either X or Z category : Savannah, Bushbaby, etc...etc...
Steve Onions

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein

Return to “Cheetah”