Cheetah - ab initio PPL?

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Re: Cheetah - ab initio PPL?

Unread post by AndyCAP » Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:09 pm

Steve,

Does a percentage of all MPL hours logged on a Z registered aircraft (with appropriate rating) count towards PPL (at a reduced rate) or is it only the first 25 hours and thereafter none at all?

With regards to ratings for a PPL, I presume the best would be to have the conversion done on a X registered aircraft and then ideally find a similar Y rated aircraft and simply do a check ride with an MPL instructor. (for the cheetah I suppose you could have a 582 powered example registered as either and X or a Z?). Even if you learnt on a X cheetah with a 912 or Jabiru, surely it should not be that difficult to get used to flying a 582 Z registered example? So what I am getting at is that for a PPL to get both an X and Z rating for Cheetahs should not involve two full conversions (assuming similar power and configuration)

One last question. Is there any difference in the maintenance requirements between X & Z registered aircraft? i.e. are you forced to use an AP for the X class or can owner maintenance be done as with Z registered types. (this whole maintanance thing is quite unclear to me, but my logic says that an NTCA should allow owner maintenance.)
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Re: Cheetah - ab initio PPL?

Unread post by Steve » Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:46 pm

Andy, there is no longer an "MPL" - that was something in the past.... Part 62 (National Pilot's License) is in effect and is referred to as the "NPL". Now within the NPL, the "weight shift" aircraft is separate from the Conventional 3-axis aircraft (450kg's and under) and there is another conventional 3-axis class called LSA (Light Sport Aircraft) which is 600kg's and under. It is obvious then, that in the past, most 912 rotax powered aircraft had an MAUW which exceeded the 450kg mark, but CAA seemingly turned a blind eye as "regulation" was a generation or so behind the rest of the world. There are some Conventional 3-axis aircraft which still comply with the 450kg limit - the Bantam and skyranger (Rotax 582) being good examples. The NPL licence requires a further 10 hours of training for pilot to become NPL (LSA) endorsed as opposed to NPL (Conventional 3-axis) endorsed.

Regarding the hours from an NPL for use in a PPL, it is only a certain number of hours that count TOWARDS OBTAINING a PPL that count - In other words, a qualified NPL LSA pilot will be credited with a set number of hours towards a PPL license and can therefore achieve a PPL license with less PPL flying than a non-NPL pilot.

With regard to a qualified PPL pilot collecting hours towards a COM license whilst flying a Z registered aircraft (Assuming they have a Z type rating), to my knowledge ZERO hours are counted. Should the same PPL pilot hold an X type rating on an X registered aircraft, then each and every hour counts.

CAA have been quite strict regarding the X and Z registered aircraft rule. We had the instance here some time ago, where a local Grade 2 PPL Instructor was also an MPL Instructor and instructor rated on the Savannah. The local agent had sold a Savannah aircraft to a client and it had been registered in the X category. Now the client wanted a type conversion, but no PPL Instructors were type rated. So CAA insisted as a special dispensation that this Grade 2 Instructor was allowed to give another Grade 2 PPL Instructor a "special" X type conversion and once done, this second Instructor could then test the initial Instructor and give him his Instructors X type rating (In addition to his MPL Instructor's Z type rating - pre NPL days)

Maintenance:
ALL NTCA aircraft fall within the same set of rules (X and Z registered) and all NTCA aircraft are subject to an annual inspection. Most AP's are licensed to work on both types, but remember, AP's are endorsed on specific engine types and aircraft types - make sure your AP is licensed correctly. An NTCA aircraft owner / pilot may carry out their own maintenance, but it has to be inspected by a registered AP.

Back to the training question & Maintenance:
Two types of training are allowed on NTCA:-
1) Owner training
2) School aircraft training

Both models have significantly different maintenance and regulatory requirements from standard NTCA pilot flight ops, specifically as to WHO may work on the aircraft - consult with your AP as to the differences and implications.
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Re: Cheetah - ab initio PPL?

Unread post by Steve » Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:55 pm

AndyCAP wrote: I presume the best would be to have the conversion done on a X registered aircraft and then ideally find a similar Y rated aircraft and simply do a check ride with an MPL instructor.
Type conversions are "proficiency driven", so if the same instructor is going to check ride the pilot on both an X registered and Z registered aircraft, it would probably take the form where most of the actual training would be done on the X registered aircraft (As the MAUW training section would be higher) and once completed, just the minimal required check ride in the Z category aircraft before being signed off. In practice, however, it is probably quite unique to find the same individual instructor rated on both Instructor levels and Z, X types - so in all probability, each instructor will treat the type conversion as a separate conversion and conduct sufficient training till proficiency is demonstrated.

As we all know, you get LSA's and you get LSA's :wink: with varying speeds and handling characterisics. So are these characteristics different for say an X registered cheetah and a Z registered Cheetah? Probably not at all, as the Z - LSA registered plane is also allowed up to 600kgs.
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Re: Cheetah - ab initio PPL?

Unread post by AndyCAP » Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:03 pm

Thanks for the detailed answers Steve!

I see there is some related info under the CAA question section. It would be nice if they could simplify the whole issue, but I suppose once you get your head aroud it its probably not too bad :D

I am sure however that there are a number of people out there who are unknowingly not complying to the law in this regard. THis does not imply that they are flying unsafely but they will be in for a big surprise if they are involved in an accidend/incident someday. :roll:
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Re: Cheetah - ab initio PPL?

Unread post by Steve » Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:22 pm

AndyCAP wrote:I am sure however that there are a number of people out there who are unknowingly not complying to the law in this regard.
I was wondering why RAY has gone awfully quite :wink:
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Re: Cheetah - ab initio PPL?

Unread post by AndyCAP » Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:10 am

RAY has gone awfully quite
Rod perhaps? :twisted:
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Re: Cheetah - ab initio PPL?

Unread post by Stephan van Tonder » Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:46 am

We have spoken to CAA when they came to do our school checks for the year. A NPL instructor can check out a PPL on a LSA plane and put it on his license. He won't be able to do an ab-initio obviously but can do the type rating. The whole X and Z system is going to fall away. The maitenance falls under th NTCA rules and has nothing to do with X or Z rating as it stands currently. Aircraft in schools also falls under a different spec and they have to be AME/AMO maintained.
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Re: Cheetah - ab initio PPL?

Unread post by AndyCAP » Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:35 am

Stefan, Do you know what the requirements are if you want to put something like a CHeetah in a school? i.e. can one buy a Cheetah 2nd hand and put it in a school to be used for training, even if it was not maintained by an AMO in its previous life? I presume as long as the aircraft is checked out (and thereafter maintained ) by an AMO it should be OK?
:?
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Re: Cheetah - ab initio PPL?

Unread post by Stephan van Tonder » Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:26 am

I'm not 100% sure but You should be able to buy it and place it in a school after which it will have to be AME/AMO maintained.
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Re: Cheetah - ab initio PPL?

Unread post by AndyCAP » Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:22 pm

Thanks Stefan :wink:

I will post the questions on the CAA section
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Re: Cheetah - ab initio PPL?

Unread post by Walid » Sun Jun 20, 2010 3:29 pm

Steve Onions wrote:Andy, there is no longer an "MPL" - that was something in the past.... Part 62 (National Pilot's License) is in effect and is referred to as the "NPL". Now within the NPL, the "weight shift" aircraft is separate from the Conventional 3-axis aircraft (450kg's and under) and there is another conventional 3-axis class called LSA (Light Sport Aircraft) which is 600kg's and under. It is obvious then, that in the past, most 912 rotax powered aircraft had an MAUW which exceeded the 450kg mark, but CAA seemingly turned a blind eye as "regulation" was a generation or so behind the rest of the world. There are some Conventional 3-axis aircraft which still comply with the 450kg limit - the Bantam and skyranger (Rotax 582) being good examples. The NPL licence requires a further 10 hours of training for pilot to become NPL (LSA) endorsed as opposed to NPL (Conventional 3-axis) endorsed.

Regarding the hours from an NPL for use in a PPL, it is only a certain number of hours that count TOWARDS OBTAINING a PPL that count - In other words, a qualified NPL LSA pilot will be credited with a set number of hours towards a PPL license and can therefore achieve a PPL license with less PPL flying than a non-NPL pilot.

With regard to a qualified PPL pilot collecting hours towards a COM license whilst flying a Z registered aircraft (Assuming they have a Z type rating), to my knowledge ZERO hours are counted. Should the same PPL pilot hold an X type rating on an X registered aircraft, then each and every hour counts.

CAA have been quite strict regarding the X and Z registered aircraft rule. We had the instance here some time ago, where a local Grade 2 PPL Instructor was also an MPL Instructor and instructor rated on the Savannah. The local agent had sold a Savannah aircraft to a client and it had been registered in the X category. Now the client wanted a type conversion, but no PPL Instructors were type rated. So CAA insisted as a special dispensation that this Grade 2 Instructor was allowed to give another Grade 2 PPL Instructor a "special" X type conversion and once done, this second Instructor could then test the initial Instructor and give him his Instructors X type rating (In addition to his MPL Instructor's Z type rating - pre NPL days)

Maintenance:
ALL NTCA aircraft fall within the same set of rules (X and Z registered) and all NTCA aircraft are subject to an annual inspection. Most AP's are licensed to work on both types, but remember, AP's are endorsed on specific engine types and aircraft types - make sure your AP is licensed correctly. An NTCA aircraft owner / pilot may carry out their own maintenance, but it has to be inspected by a registered AP.

Back to the training question & Maintenance:
Two types of training are allowed on NTCA:-
1) Owner training
2) School aircraft training

Both models have significantly different maintenance and regulatory requirements from standard NTCA pilot flight ops, specifically as to WHO may work on the aircraft - consult with your AP as to the differences and implications.
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