Emigration options

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Falafel
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Re: Emigration options

Unread post by Falafel » Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:06 pm

Jack Welles wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:04 pm
Falafel wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:54 am
paulw wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:33 am
When my dogs were fetched few weeks ago, the one guy was saying that they have about 3 families pets emigrating per day on a quite day.
(Then they have pets travelling locally of course as well on top of that.)
Not surprising that the actual statistics may be understating the problem.... many dont emigrate, dont declare that they are going but simply up and leave... a few houses near me in Fourways standing empty... look abandoned where people have left...

Saddest thing for me is that I met someone who looks after Retriever rescues who said that they are inundated with them after people have left the country... being a real family dog its pretty sad... if my Retrievers cant come... I dont go :!: :!: :!: :!:
Lot of opportunities (especially in property) open up every time there's a rush to leave. The first time I remember was back in the late 1980's. Properties were going for a song. I guess you could call them "emigration options" for those who stay :lol:

Of course it's a risky business, the law of averages tells us that the apocalypse actually has to happen some time 8-[
Thread drift slightly... I am still looking around for property bargains but just dont seem to see them... yet.... maybe just me but cost of renovating has gone up so much that property prices need to drop a little more before there are screaming bargains... I am hopeful however (being a non property owner with a little time and money waiting in the wings)...
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Re: Emigration options

Unread post by Jack Welles » Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:16 pm

Falafel wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:06 pm
Thread drift slightly... I am still looking around for property bargains but just dont seem to see them... yet.... maybe just me but cost of renovating has gone up so much that property prices need to drop a little more before there are screaming bargains... I am hopeful however (being a non property owner with a little time and money waiting in the wings)...
Not really thread drift because property prices are directly related to the number of folk emigrating and that's what this thread is about. I guess we have to wait for some pol to do something really stupid (which they're good at :roll: ) before there'll be a significant drop.

It's surprising actually that, together with the crappy economic environment, prices are being quite resilient. Maybe emigrants are being more cautious about letting them go at lower prices. Still with all the anecdotal talk about people emigrating it still hasn't had a marked effect :?

As an aside: if people do think it's a hijack we can always start a new thread called "Emigration Options - Remainers" :lol:
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Re: Emigration options

Unread post by vanjast » Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:02 pm

Jack Welles wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:16 pm
As an aside: if people do think it's a hijack we can always start a new thread called "Emigration Options - Remainers" :lol:
Not necessary.. it's good to have opposing views, otherwise we just end up living in My Happy bubbles... which eventually pop anyway.
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Re: Emigration options

Unread post by paulw » Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:16 pm

Falafel wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:54 am

Not surprising that the actual statistics may be understating the problem.... many dont emigrate, dont declare that they are going but simply up and leave... a few houses near me in Fourways standing empty... look abandoned where people have left...
Same here. I am not officially emigrated yet but you won't see me back in SA unless some death or serious illness. I'll rather pay for people to come and visit us and give them a chance to travel.
I will get to the official emigration (financial, etc) at some point.
Falafel wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:54 am
Saddest thing for me is that I met someone who looks after Retriever rescues who said that they are inundated with them after people have left the country... being a real family dog its pretty sad... if my Retrievers cant come... I dont go :!: :!: :!: :!:
Agreed. Thats what we said too. My list of criteria had the dogs high on the list as important to check. Number of dogs allowed in a household, quarantine, etc (Australia Queensland only allowed 2 per household unless you get special permission), etc.
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Re: Emigration options

Unread post by paulw » Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:28 pm

Jack Welles wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:16 pm
Falafel wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:06 pm
Thread drift slightly... I am still looking around for property bargains but just dont seem to see them... yet.... maybe just me but cost of renovating has gone up so much that property prices need to drop a little more before there are screaming bargains... I am hopeful however (being a non property owner with a little time and money waiting in the wings)...
Not really thread drift because property prices are directly related to the number of folk emigrating and that's what this thread is about. I guess we have to wait for some pol to do something really stupid (which they're good at :roll: ) before there'll be a significant drop.

It's surprising actually that, together with the crappy economic environment, prices are being quite resilient. Maybe emigrants are being more cautious about letting them go at lower prices. Still with all the anecdotal talk about people emigrating it still hasn't had a marked effect :?
My house sold at a bargain for the buyer as my brother -in-law was going to buy at a low price and could not get a loan (to many other properties already). So now I was like just get rid of the place and sold very quickly to a cash buyer at approx 70% of the value. But I was happy. Still got some money out and no buyers walking over the floor which is a security risk while I am in Ireland and wife and son at home still.
But I know that some are wanting to get the max and therefore wait months before it is sold. Either to get the max amount of money to help pay for emigration or because they still owe a lot at the bank as they don't own it long.
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Re: Emigration options

Unread post by Johan.botha » Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:21 pm

I left SA a few years ago and it was the best decision I ever made. I live in Dubai and spend some time in Spain, I feel so alive. My mom still lives in SA and I hear of the daily challenges. What is normal in SA is unheard of in most of the world and it is getting worse, fast.

South Africans spend a lot of time justifying the problems they live with but the reality is there is a big beautiful world out there most of which is safer, cheaper and where we are more welcome.

Its a big decision to move and its easy to procrastinate. The sooner you start somewhere the sooner you start to build a new life. The longer you stay in SA the harder it gets becaus age, finances and general collapse make it more difficult over time. Realistically you need to go at some point so rather leave sooner and get going with the next leg of the journey.

The SA we grew up in and long for is gone forever. Accept it and move on.
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Re: Emigration options

Unread post by paulw » Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:01 pm

Johan.botha wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:21 pm
I live in Dubai and spend some time in Spain,
I agree with your post and sadly if you live in SA, you don't see the change as it is gradual.
Not everything in SA is bad, but yes....

What is Dubai like? I was seriously looking at Dubai but my wife wasn't keen.
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Re: Emigration options

Unread post by Flugmaour » Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:03 am

Johan.botha wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:21 pm
I left SA a few years ago and it was the best decision I ever made. I live in Dubai and spend some time in Spain, I feel so alive. My mom still lives in SA and I hear of the daily challenges. What is normal in SA is unheard of in most of the world and it is getting worse, fast.

South Africans spend a lot of time justifying the problems they live with but the reality is there is a big beautiful world out there most of which is safer, cheaper and where we are more welcome.

Its a big decision to move and its easy to procrastinate. The sooner you start somewhere the sooner you start to build a new life. The longer you stay in SA the harder it gets becaus age, finances and general collapse make it more difficult over time. Realistically you need to go at some point so rather leave sooner and get going with the next leg of the journey.

The SA we grew up in and long for is gone forever. Accept it and move on.
Different strokes for different folks. I used to live in Dubai and travelled to over 50 countries during my time there. I can honestly say that SA still ranks as one of the top countries to live in lifestyle wise despite some of the ongoing issues we face. I really don't know why everybody is so keen on emigration?
I do realise that things can go south quickly and that an exit strategy needs to be in place, but until that day comes I am very happy to keep on enjoying what our country has to offer.
Moving back from Dubai was one of the best decisions I ever made.
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Re: Emigration options

Unread post by Flugmaour » Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:42 am

paulw wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:01 pm
Johan.botha wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:21 pm
I live in Dubai and spend some time in Spain,
I agree with your post and sadly if you live in SA, you don't see the change as it is gradual.
Not everything in SA is bad, but yes....

What is Dubai like? I was seriously looking at Dubai but my wife wasn't keen.
Paul you are much better of in Ireland than Dubai, you not missing out on anything.
Dubai is a baking sh*thole still functioning on laws from the stone age while trying to portray themselves as a first world country with Western laws. It is all smoke and mirrors. It is stupidly expensive and you can never get citizenship. (not that any sane person would want that in any case) so there is no real point of moving there as an emigration option, as you will forever be a "visitor" to their country.
Most Saffers like Dubai for some reason though, I still don't know why... Yes, you will have security but a lot of other freedoms gets taken away - everything gets censored and you have no freedom of speech. I mean when a country needs a minister of happiness you know how bad it really is, it is actually laughable. O and did I mention the ridiculous amount of pollution and insane weather in summer.


But like I said in my previous post - different strokes for different folks. But personally I think you are way better off in Ireland compared to Dubai. My wife is from Ireland and we looked into moving there while we were still Dubai, its a fantastic country.
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Re: Emigration options

Unread post by Johan.botha » Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:55 am

paulw wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:01 pm
Johan.botha wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:21 pm
I live in Dubai and spend some time in Spain,
What is Dubai like? I was seriously looking at Dubai but my wife wasn't keen.
Dubai is amazing. Safe, lots to do, full of interesting people and easy to travel to and from. I have enjoyed it but it will eventually go stale for me. It is also a place that can never be home, so you come here to work, you get paid well, there is no tax so you leave with a nest egg.

I spend my free time in Spain and that I love. Beautiful, characterful and gentle. Weather is nice, people are great, cheap to live in etc. I will finish up in Dubai in the next 5 years and then live my days out on the shores of the Med. I think its the best place on earth.

You talk about the gradual change in SA and that was true up to a few years ago. In the last 2 or 3 it has really accelerated, I don't know why. Basically everyone I know that's left is actively putting there exit plan together, the consensus seems to be that its gone beyond the point of acceptable and there is no prospect of the trend reversing.
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Re: Emigration options

Unread post by HJK 414 » Sun Apr 07, 2019 9:31 am

Johan.botha wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:55 am
.........

I spend my free time in Spain and that I love. Beautiful, characterful and gentle. Weather is nice, people are great, cheap to live in etc. I will finish up in Dubai in the next 5 years and then live my days out on the shores of the Med. I think its the best place on earth.
...........

Agree,

It is an amazing place with tolerant, respectfull people...... =D>
We love it here..

JK
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Re: Emigration options

Unread post by Jack Welles » Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:20 am

Johan.botha wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:21 pm
South Africans spend a lot of time justifying the problems they live with but the reality is there is a big beautiful world out there most of which is safer, cheaper and where we are more welcome. The SA we grew up in and long for is gone forever. Accept it and move on.
There seems to be an assumption by some SA emigrants that everyone in SA (and certainly the people on this forum) have no clue as to what it is like to live in a foreign country or hasn't actually lived in such a country and, in both cases, hasn't actually made a conscious decision to live in SA.

For example, I have lived and worked in the USA (Ozarks, Missouri and Daytona, Miami) and lived and worked in Australia (Sydney), while my Brit wife was born, schooled, worked and lived (well, I might add, the family is part of the Eton and Oxbridge axis) so she wasn't a migrant there, her dad was Vice-Governor of the Bank of England and then Managing Partner of Lazards Merchant Bank in London) in the UK and my son has lived and worked in the UK (London) and Australia (Brisbane) and all of us are very happy to make the informed decision to live in SA. I believe Cage has also lived and worked overseas and prefers to live in SA. There are others ... just saying ...

This doesn't mean that we don't wish emigrants well wherever they find themselves (even those who occasionally can't get there first choice and, for example, are not accepted in Australia and go to New Zealand instead and ditto ireland/UK and Canada/USA) trying for a better life. We do wish all emigrants well. May all their dreams and hopes in their new homes be fulfilled! Anyway it's quite exciting to trek around different cultures etc. There are fabulous places all over the world.

However, it would also be nice if the emigrants realised they haven't somehow unearthed a holy grail to which all should pay homage and returned the favour and also wished us remainers who have consciously decided to stay in SA (and who work to try and make it a better place for all) the best of good luck in our endeavours.
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Re: Emigration options

Unread post by HJK 414 » Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:42 am

Jack Welles wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:20 am
Johan.botha wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:21 pm
South Africans spend a lot of time justifying the problems they live with but the reality is there is a big beautiful world out there most of which is safer, cheaper and where we are more welcome. The SA we grew up in and long for is gone forever. Accept it and move on.
There seems to be an assumption by some SA emigrants that everyone in SA (and certainly the people on this forum) have no clue as to what it is like to live in a foreign country or hasn't actually lived in such a country and, in both cases, hasn't actually made a conscious decision to live in SA.
……………..

This doesn't mean that we don't wish emigrants well wherever they find themselves (even those who occasionally can't get there first choice and, for example, are not accepted in Australia and go to New Zealand instead and ditto ireland/UK and Canada/USA) trying for a better life. We do wish all emigrants well. May all their dreams and hopes in their new homes be fulfilled! Anyway it's quite exciting to trek around different cultures etc. There are fabulous places all over the world.

However, it would also be nice if the emigrants realised they haven't somehow unearthed a holy grail to which all should pay homage and returned the favour and also wished us remainers who have consciously decided to stay in SA (and who work to try and make it a better place for all) the best of good luck in our endeavours.


I agree with you Eddie,

The general tone of the participants here is that they all wish the "emigrants" all the best and are curious about their new life.
The same may apply to the "remainers" as you call them - one would expect that their endeavours should be applauded as well and their choices respected …..

Yet - there is a subtle difference here.
We see a lot of the "remainers" complain about crime - safety - corruption - medical facilities - preferential status of "others" - political shenanigans and in some cases a declining standard of living. That may be the consequence of the choice they made ….. so perhaps learning to live with the choice one made and making the best of it ... ??

And let us not forget that there is a vast group of people that are "remainers" by no choice of their own.
If someone has lost his job - or is in relatively "low income" work - is living in a house that is under mortgage and has little or no life savings - the world out there is a hard nut to crack - regardless of any wishes or longing to start new somewhere else.
Subsidized emigration is not on the cards as yet ……

Some of us have lost sight of the hardships that many people go through on a day to day basis in an environment that is certainly not conducive to their life's wishes - ambitions or goals - nor of their children …. [-X ….. yet the choices they have are limited.
South Africa certainly is no longer what it was and some are finding it difficult to adapt.

JK
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paulw
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Re: Emigration options

Unread post by paulw » Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:29 pm

Jack Welles wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:20 am

However, it would also be nice if the emigrants realised they haven't somehow unearthed a holy grail to which all should pay homage and returned the favour and also wished us remainers who have consciously decided to stay in SA (and who work to try and make it a better place for all) the best of good luck in our endeavours.
Good post and I certainly respect those who opt to stay in SA willingly when they can emigrate.
SA is not all bad. If I look at the banking system in SA compared, I think SA is ahead in some respects. Here in Ireland you battle to open an account and wait about two weeks before you have your debit card and pin in house and can actually use it.
Twenty years ago SA was also ahead of the Netherlands banks. Don't know now.

There are other pro's for SA too.

I have family with Dutch passports who can emigrate but opt to stay and I respect that.
(If I think it is wise, now thats a different story, but you have to respect the reasons for staying)

My reason for emigrating is for the peace of mind and my old age.
I feel the a lot more relaxed as well. I use to drink disprins for headaches all the time in SA for stress etc and now nothing. Just once in just over 2 months and that was just as I was about to go back to SA to pack container and fetch the family.
I knew my son was going to emigrate. That was known and I was def not going to stay behind without someone to visit me and wife in an old age home on a Sunday afternoon.

What I do see is people are happy to stay if they are young and have no children. Once they have children, they think differently about life.
Now what if they emigrate and you now stay behind and it is too late to emigrate?
You then really need a good toolkit to emigrate i.e. good passport, money in the bank etc to be able to emigrate and accepted in most countries. (Not impossible, but not easy)

Jobs as well. Now that I am in Ireland, I have been contacted by a few ex colleagues who want me to help them find a job as they are either without a job or start to feel the pressure. Some were retrenched last year and still without a job. Good IT careers.

So it all really depends if you are self sufficient or dependent on jobs, etc. for a lot of people.

But yes, to make a long story short, I definitely wish the "remainers" well and I pray for them/your safety and well being.

I really hope it work out for those wishing to stay and those who wish to emigrate that they can.
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Re: Emigration options

Unread post by paulw » Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:36 pm

HJK 414 wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:42 am
And let us not forget that there is a vast group of people that are "remainers" by no choice of their own.
If someone has lost his job - or is in relatively "low income" work - is living in a house that is under mortgage and has little or no life savings - the world out there is a hard nut to crack - regardless of any wishes or longing to start new somewhere else.
Subsidized emigration is not on the cards as yet ……


JK
Very true. I was in the fortunate position that we could load a container, bring our dogs with. Some who can emigrate had to leave beloved pets behind, sell everything and leave with just a suitcase or two and rebuild their lives.
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