Immigration - those coming back home - it's your turn.

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paulw
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Re: Immigration - those coming back home - it's your turn.

Unread post by paulw » Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:46 pm

Horace Blok wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:14 am
In order for some "balance" - We've had (still having) the Emigration thread. Those who have returned back home (past and present) - why did you come back to SA??
Emigrated to Netherlands in 1998. Son got medical problems and needed home schooling which was illegal in Netherlands but legal in Belgium.
So we planned to move to Belgium and just pop over the border to work in the Netherlands.
However, then my Mother in Law got cancer and my wife wanted to come back. So my son and I came back not wanting too.
My wife was always 50-50. Sometimes wanted to come back and missed family especially if they go on how nice braai they had and wished we were here etc.
So we came back and within a month or two my wife wanted to go back to the Netherlands.
But we stayed with intentions to stay for a year or two but 11 years on now actively packing up and can't wait to go including the wife.
The waiting was due to waiting for son to finish studying (which he didn't) and to see what happens to the M-I-L who passed away in the beginning of the year making it so much easier for my wife to pack up and go.

So came back for personal reasons and not because of where we were or not coping or....or...or...
I think most people come back for family commitments or missing the family (especially the women do...)

Then there is a bit of the reason why you emigrated fading away and not realising what is happening in SA and what you are leaving behind by coming back.

I've seen many people (smallish percentage of those who emigrated) who came back to SA and most of those regretted it but not all.
Some then packed up again and left again and some I know now in the process of packing up to emigrate for the second time.

Some stayed and happy to be here. (A very very small percentage from those I know(n) who returned and happy to be here.)
My one brother emigrated to the Netherlands, returned to SA and moved back to the Netherlands. His wife came back ahead while he was still packing and while packing container phoned and said "nope, lets stay in Holland" But it was too late. But later they did return.

My other brother also emigrated to the Netherlands and came back to SA and claim to be happy here. I know he was thinking of going back to the Netherlands at one point though. His wife want to go back.

Statistics I saw once long time ago showed that most people who returned or thinking of returning were from Scandinavia and UK mostly due to weather and depression due to long and grey winters.
Those living in USA and Australia were less likely to return.
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Re: Immigration - those coming back home - it's your turn.

Unread post by cage » Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:59 pm

You'd be surprised at a new trend, husbands in unhappy marriages "going ahead" to settle, dragging the wives along in the hopes of a better life and then filing for divorce in the new country so the wives are unable to leave with the kids.
Ladies beware.
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Re: Immigration - those coming back home - it's your turn.

Unread post by rare bird » Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:08 am

Jel wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:01 pm
Ok Not entirely applicable but...

I was living overseas and came back in 2011... was absolutely the right decision at the time. Various reasons, least of all cost of living, was in between jobs (hated where I was at and I resigned without a job - don't say it cant happen to you because frankly speaking depression was setting coming in a big way which was detrimental to my family - DONT think it cant happen to you), needed to gather myself mentally and financially, and again, best decision I made...

Now supposed to leave in February / March... and honestly... having second thoughts right now... Germany for two years.... I would like to stay for another few years and then leave when my children are about to go into university... age 14 I feel is a bad time... just me.
I can understand your lack of enthusiasm, Jel, and that you are finding it a tug-of-war internally, however I do think you are doing the right thing for your kids - it is actually better to go a bit earlier (14 years old is good) because that gives them time to settle in, and they will qualify for grants & bursaries for further studies, which they don't qualify for if they only arrived in the last year of schooling.

my own return: I grew up in SA, studied and did army, worked at Pelindaba and when they closed the H Plant, moved abroad (England) and worked for Royal Dutch (Shell). It was a tremendous learning experience for me. I returned to SA in 1991 due to family reasons, and was able to spend a few months with my mother before she passed on. There was a lot of "good will" and willingness to help the previously disadvantaged (not in a patronising way - genuine good will) in the mid nineties.
I can understand why people are considering moving on again (including myself), since many of those who were assisted, have not reciprocated with good will, or acknowledge the assistance they were given, but seem to have this attitude of "entitlement" (just my personal observation) - I lectured at one of the universities for 18 years - and still have a photo of one of the students standing proudly on top of a car they had overturned. My own car was nearly trashed at the same time, and the mob had no regard for the lives of others around them. ( I think that and a few other incidents helped turn me into the cynic I have become). If you have a business that meets all the new criteria (and criteria that are still looming in the timeline as it was planned and is being implemented), then it is fine to return, but if you still have a few years to go before retiring, then it is probably not the smartest thing to return to a weaker economy too early, but to rather keep earning in the stronger currency before returning.
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Re: Immigration - those coming back home - it's your turn.

Unread post by Marius Schrenk » Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:44 am

rare bird wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:08 am
Jel wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:01 pm
Ok Not entirely applicable but...

I was living overseas and came back in 2011... was absolutely the right decision at the time. Various reasons, least of all cost of living, was in between jobs (hated where I was at and I resigned without a job - don't say it cant happen to you because frankly speaking depression was setting coming in a big way which was detrimental to my family - DONT think it cant happen to you), needed to gather myself mentally and financially, and again, best decision I made...

Now supposed to leave in February / March... and honestly... having second thoughts right now... Germany for two years.... I would like to stay for another few years and then leave when my children are about to go into university... age 14 I feel is a bad time... just me.
I can understand your lack of enthusiasm, Jel, and that you are finding it a tug-of-war internally, however I do think you are doing the right thing for your kids - it is actually better to go a bit earlier (14 years old is good) because that gives them time to settle in, and they will qualify for grants & bursaries for further studies, which they don't qualify for if they only arrived in the last year of schooling.

my own return: I grew up in SA, studied and did army, worked at Pelindaba and when they closed the H Plant, moved abroad (England) and worked for Royal Dutch (Shell). It was a tremendous learning experience for me. I returned to SA in 1991 due to family reasons, and was able to spend a few months with my mother before she passed on. There was a lot of "good will" and willingness to help the previously disadvantaged (not in a patronising way - genuine good will) in the mid nineties.
I can understand why people are considering moving on again (including myself), since many of those who were assisted, have not reciprocated with good will, or acknowledge the assistance they were given, but seem to have this attitude of "entitlement" (just my personal observation) - I lectured at one of the universities for 18 years - and still have a photo of one of the students standing proudly on top of a car they had overturned. My own car was nearly trashed at the same time, and the mob had no regard for the lives of others around them. ( I think that and a few other incidents helped turn me into the cynic I have become). If you have a business that meets all the new criteria (and criteria that are still looming in the timeline as it was planned and is being implemented), then it is fine to return, but if you still have a few years to go before retiring, then it is probably not the smartest thing to return to a weaker economy too early, but to rather keep earning in the stronger currency before returning.
:? So would you then say, moving is more of a temporary situation to earn more money and educate your children,but in the end one should/would return.....because its cheaper to retire here,or would the move be of a more permanent nature due to permanent better opportunities/ conditions ??
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Re: Immigration - those coming back home - it's your turn.

Unread post by Jel » Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:36 am

Marius Schrenk wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:44 am
rare bird wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:08 am
Jel wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:01 pm
Ok Not entirely applicable but...

I was living overseas and came back in 2011... was absolutely the right decision at the time. Various reasons, least of all cost of living, was in between jobs (hated where I was at and I resigned without a job - don't say it cant happen to you because frankly speaking depression was setting coming in a big way which was detrimental to my family - DONT think it cant happen to you), needed to gather myself mentally and financially, and again, best decision I made...

Now supposed to leave in February / March... and honestly... having second thoughts right now... Germany for two years.... I would like to stay for another few years and then leave when my children are about to go into university... age 14 I feel is a bad time... just me.
I can understand your lack of enthusiasm, Jel, and that you are finding it a tug-of-war internally, however I do think you are doing the right thing for your kids - it is actually better to go a bit earlier (14 years old is good) because that gives them time to settle in, and they will qualify for grants & bursaries for further studies, which they don't qualify for if they only arrived in the last year of schooling.

my own return: I grew up in SA, studied and did army, worked at Pelindaba and when they closed the H Plant, moved abroad (England) and worked for Royal Dutch (Shell). It was a tremendous learning experience for me. I returned to SA in 1991 due to family reasons, and was able to spend a few months with my mother before she passed on. There was a lot of "good will" and willingness to help the previously disadvantaged (not in a patronising way - genuine good will) in the mid nineties.
I can understand why people are considering moving on again (including myself), since many of those who were assisted, have not reciprocated with good will, or acknowledge the assistance they were given, but seem to have this attitude of "entitlement" (just my personal observation) - I lectured at one of the universities for 18 years - and still have a photo of one of the students standing proudly on top of a car they had overturned. My own car was nearly trashed at the same time, and the mob had no regard for the lives of others around them. ( I think that and a few other incidents helped turn me into the cynic I have become). If you have a business that meets all the new criteria (and criteria that are still looming in the timeline as it was planned and is being implemented), then it is fine to return, but if you still have a few years to go before retiring, then it is probably not the smartest thing to return to a weaker economy too early, but to rather keep earning in the stronger currency before returning.
:? So would you then say, moving is more of a temporary situation to earn more money and educate your children,but in the end one should/would return.....because its cheaper to retire here,or would the move be of a more permanent nature due to permanent better opportunities/ conditions ??
One can give children a great education in SA... many Cambridge schools in SA around for relatively low cost (around ZAR80k per year each)... same thing in UK or Europe would be around Euro15k p/a
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Re: Immigration - those coming back home - it's your turn.

Unread post by snoopy » Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:38 am

We lived and worked in Sydney, NSW, lived outside of the main city on the North Shore - loved it, it was a lot like Stellenbosch, just closer to the sea; we made many new friends, loved the patriotism of that country, enjoyed the lifestyle of the East Coast of AUS...

Came back because we never left SA with the intention of emigrating - even though this was an option open to us, and when the contract came to an end in AUS, we were asked to stay on - our Visas allowed us to live and work in AUS for a number of years. The AUsies thought we were mad to go back to SA.

The SA expats in AUS, those who have those SA get-together braais - were nauseating - we went to one of the braais there - and man what a pity party that was.

We made many more other AUS friends - with which we still have regular contact years after coming back. Some of the SAffers who came back from AUS had ideals of changing things here when coming back - I'm not sure how well that succeeded. Perhaps in small areas of influence it made a difference.

It was great to have most SA groceries available in Sydney - so it wasn't so much of an adjustment. Cars were 100% cheaper there than here in SA. If it wasn't for SARS' massive import duties I would have brought my car back to SA. Ironic that the car was actually built in SA an exported to AUS at the time...just cost much less in AUS than here.

Renting out our coastal home to a US family - was a costly exercise (damage) - I wont do that again if we ever decide to leave SA shores again.

If it wasn't for family ties here - we may never have come back. I'll always be African at heart, but its easy to let go of all the cr*p caused by politics in SA...and quite a relief living overseas without it.

Life in AUS is relatively easy, and they are not as tough as South Africans. Africa makes us extremely tough...perhaps too much so. :arrow:
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Re: Immigration - those coming back home - it's your turn.

Unread post by Jel » Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:55 am

snoopy wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:38 am
We lived and worked in Sydney, NSW, lived outside of the main city on the North Shore - loved it, it was a lot like Stellenbosch, just closer to the sea; we made many new friends, loved the patriotism of that country, enjoyed the lifestyle of the East Coast of AUS...

Came back because we never left SA with the intention of emigrating - even though this was an option open to us, and when the contract came to an end in AUS, we were asked to stay on - our Visas allowed us to live and work in AUS for a number of years. The AUsies thought we were mad to go back to SA.

The SA expats in AUS, those who have those SA get-together braais - were nauseating - we went to one of the braais there - and man what a pity party that was.

We made many more other AUS friends - with which we still have regular contact years after coming back. Some of the SAffers who came back from AUS had ideals of changing things here when coming back - I'm not sure how well that succeeded. Perhaps in small areas of influence it made a difference.

It was great to have most SA groceries available in Sydney - so it wasn't so much of an adjustment. Cars were 100% cheaper there than here in SA. If it wasn't for SARS' massive import duties I would have brought my car back to SA. Ironic that the car was actually built in SA an exported to AUS at the time...just cost much less in AUS than here.

Renting out our coastal home to a US family - was a costly exercise (damage) - I wont do that again if we ever decide to leave SA shores again.

If it wasn't for family ties here - we may never have come back. I'll always be African at heart, but its easy to let go of all the cr*p caused by politics in SA...and quite a relief living overseas without it.

Life in AUS is relatively easy, and they are not as tough as South Africans. Africa makes us extremely tough...perhaps too much so. :arrow:
Had residency for AUS some years ago... did the first entry and never went back.. different strokes :!: Now lapsed and no longer and option but don't feel like I am missing out on anything... they do live well though and quality of life is fantastic. I think if one goes you need to go early (in life)... leaving it late one will struggle to get "up" in life... very flat structure. Either go with lots of money or early to build yourself up...

Would certainly not consider it at the age of 46, starting a new job, career and prospects...
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Re: Immigration - those coming back home - it's your turn.

Unread post by snoopy » Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:05 am

I think the tall-poppy syndrome is a very real thing in AUS, and thinking back in terms of work life - it certainly was a difficult thing to understand and manage...especially at first. Their English was also far more "apologetic" than ours here. Never tell an AUSie they "must" if you mean they should :twisted: :lol:

Oh and about work life - the Chinese were starting to push their way into AUS big time - when we were living there...which caused issues in their economy. As they import a lot from China.

The Chinese manufacturers dumped Chinese into AUS on a big scale to do recon in the main centres - and then started under cutting our wholesale industry. They started selling direct to the public, while the same manufacturer was still supplying us as their sole importer in AUS.

So I'm watching their moves here in Africa carefully as well. Chances are good they will do the same here in time.

The rat race of the CBDs, got to me I must admit...just too many people in the CBDs. Ek's maar 'n "dorps mens" meer as 'n stad mens. Greater Sydney had about 20 million people living there, compared to 8 million for the same geographic sized area in Manhattan USA.

Sydney is about the size of the Cape Peninsula (CPT METRO); only 4 million people live here by comparison.
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Re: Immigration - those coming back home - it's your turn.

Unread post by rare bird » Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:50 am

Marius Schrenk wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:44 am
So would you then say, moving is more of a temporary situation to earn more money and educate your children,but in the end one should/would return.....because its cheaper to retire here,or would the move be of a more permanent nature due to permanent better opportunities/ conditions ??
If you have a "nest egg" in a strong currency, and you have no emotional attachments (or family, lovers etc reasons) to come back to SA, then you will find many places that can offer excellent value and great lifestyle.
It is always easier going from a strong economy to a weak economy, than the other way round.
The snag with the weak economies is that often the health care can be lacking - which typically becomes more important as one gets older.
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Re: Immigration - those coming back home - it's your turn.

Unread post by rare bird » Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:57 am

just realised I did not actually answer the question:
No, I do not think one necessarily must come back to SA (or wherever your birth country was).
One needs to be happy wherever you are, and make the most (for yourself & others around you) no matter where you are.
From my own experience, I do think it is better to move with the intention of being permanent, but without burning your bridges.
I have seen people keep their properties & rent them out, and eventually have to come back to try to fix them up and sell, and others who keep stuff in storage for years - these are all things that "pull one back".
Also remember that when you do come back, things will be very different to when you left (sometimes better, sometimes worse, but different)(you have also changed!)
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Re: Immigration - those coming back home - it's your turn.

Unread post by swann morton » Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:14 pm

Friend of mine returned from NZ couple of years ago.

He said: It is not about where you are, but who you are.

Wise words.
Enjoy!
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Re: Immigration - those coming back home - it's your turn.

Unread post by Marius Schrenk » Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:19 pm

rare bird wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:57 am
just realised I did not actually answer the question:
No, I do not think one necessarily must come back to SA (or wherever your birth country was).
One needs to be happy wherever you are, and make the most (for yourself & others around you) no matter where you are.
From my own experience, I do think it is better to move with the intention of being permanent, but without burning your bridges.
I have seen people keep their properties & rent them out, and eventually have to come back to try to fix them up and sell, and others who keep stuff in storage for years - these are all things that "pull one back".
Also remember that when you do come back, things will be very different to when you left (sometimes better, sometimes worse, but different)(you have also changed!)
Thanks.
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Re: Immigration - those coming back home - it's your turn.

Unread post by Jason » Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:37 pm

Like Snoopy, lived in Sydney for a number of years, Kirribilli to be precise which is a small suburb on other side of harbour opposite the sydney opera house, stunning 180 degree view from my apartment of the entire harbour all the way to the "heads"

I was transferred with a company i worked for here in SA(aussie company) and was a amazing opportunity which i would do again, i do miss allot of what it has to offer(amazing transport system, Trains, busses, ferry, used them all) but i have no regrets for coming back (due to family concerns here in SA).
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Re: Immigration - those coming back home - it's your turn.

Unread post by SaraLima » Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:38 pm

Left SA in my mid-20s and moved to the USA as a career move. Did six years in USA near Philadelphia (hated the last five and a half of them) then moved to UK (also a career move). My airline moved me to Germany for a two year cycle, then back to UK where I lived until retirement Mainly in Weybridge, Surrey).

Retired on a GB £ pension and returning to SA was a no-brainer. I'd obviously been a regular visitor to SA throughout my working life, and believe it or not, after 40 plus years I still missed tortelduifies, real braais (with boerewors), open spaces, sunshine and liveable winters.

Somehow though, the South Africa to which I returned has a lot of subliminal anger seething in its population, which sometimes spoils its beauty - Sad.
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Re: Immigration - those coming back home - it's your turn.

Unread post by Speedbird55 » Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:12 pm

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