Immigration - those coming back home - it's your turn.

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Craigb
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Re: Immigration - those coming back home - it's your turn.

Unread post by Craigb » Tue Dec 25, 2018 6:36 am

I think the change in the expat tax calculations may have a few more of us heading home over the next few months.
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Re: Immigration - those coming back home - it's your turn.

Unread post by Horace Blok » Tue Dec 25, 2018 7:48 am

Craigb wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 6:36 am
I think the change in the expat tax calculations may have a few more of us heading home over the next few months.
Top of the morning and Merry Christmas Squire.

Pretty naively I ask - Please educate - is your tax comment becoming a world wide “thing” or just applicable to certain countries??
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Re: Immigration - those coming back home - it's your turn.

Unread post by Jack Welles » Tue Dec 25, 2018 8:01 am

Horace Blok wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 7:48 am
Craigb wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 6:36 am
I think the change in the expat tax calculations may have a few more of us heading home over the next few months.
Top of the morning and Merry Christmas Squire. Pretty naively I ask - Please educate - is your tax comment becoming a world wide “thing” or just applicable to certain countries??
He's talking about the fact that certain income earned by SA expats which was free of SA tax could become taxable in SA, so the tax-free benefits of earning "outside" would be reduced, so if making money is your main driver you may as well come home.
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Horace Blok
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Re: Immigration - those coming back home - it's your turn.

Unread post by Horace Blok » Tue Dec 25, 2018 8:38 am

Jack Welles wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 8:01 am
Horace Blok wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 7:48 am
Craigb wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 6:36 am
I think the change in the expat tax calculations may have a few more of us heading home over the next few months.
Top of the morning and Merry Christmas Squire. Pretty naively I ask - Please educate - is your tax comment becoming a world wide “thing” or just applicable to certain countries??
He's talking about the fact that certain income earned by SA expats which was free of SA tax could become taxable in SA, so the tax-free benefits of earning "outside" would be reduced, so if making money is your main driver you may as well come home.
Ah, thanks. I thought a new tax was being considered in some countries directed at ex pats to keep them out.

So he was referring to the 181 day out of the country rule ??
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Re: Immigration - those coming back home - it's your turn.

Unread post by Jack Welles » Tue Dec 25, 2018 9:45 am

Horace Blok wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 8:38 am
So he was referring to the 181 day out of the country rule ??
I'm taking a bit of a liberty talking for him but I presume so.
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Re: Immigration - those coming back home - it's your turn.

Unread post by vanjast » Tue Dec 25, 2018 11:02 am

Financial emigration solves that problem. ;)
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Re: Immigration - those coming back home - it's your turn.

Unread post by Jack Welles » Tue Dec 25, 2018 11:24 am

vanjast wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 11:02 am
Financial emigration solves that problem. ;)
This threads about immigration - there's already a thread about emigration :wink:

https://www.avcom.co.za/phpBB3/viewtopi ... n#p2003783
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Re: Immigration - those coming back home - it's your turn.

Unread post by vanjast » Tue Dec 25, 2018 1:35 pm

The side topic was about SARS and the new tax thing, which also partly connected to immigration.
From what I understand, you can still can work overseas and return to SA while financially emigrated (you keep your SA passport/'citizenship') - you just pay tax in that other country and SARS cannot touch you. Only monies earned in SA would then be taxable by SARS.

Something like being a visitor in the country you are born in. ;)
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Re: Immigration - those coming back home - it's your turn.

Unread post by Craigb » Tue Dec 25, 2018 3:52 pm

Jack Welles wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 9:45 am
Horace Blok wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 8:38 am
So he was referring to the 181 day out of the country rule ??
I'm taking a bit of a liberty talking for him but I presume so.
Correct.
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Re: Immigration - those coming back home - it's your turn.

Unread post by Jack Welles » Tue Dec 25, 2018 4:32 pm

vanjast wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 1:35 pm
The side topic was about SARS and the new tax thing, which also partly connected to immigration.
From what I understand, you can still can work overseas and return to SA while financially emigrated (you keep your SA passport/'citizenship') - you just pay tax in that other country and SARS cannot touch you. Only monies earned in SA would then be taxable by SARS. Something like being a visitor in the country you are born in. ;)
Sorry, but it seems we're talking past each other or there's a fundamental misunderstanding of the relevant tax law.

Immigration means the action of coming to live permanently in a country, ie, not just as a visitor. If one does immigrate to SA (thus becomes a resident as defined) one will not be able to avoid the tax we were talking about, even if one works and earns overseas (source of earnings). That's the way the tax law reads.

The SA tax law these days is based on "residency" not "source" as in the somewhat distant past.
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Re: Immigration - those coming back home - it's your turn.

Unread post by cage » Tue Dec 25, 2018 5:10 pm

Jack Welles wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 4:32 pm

Immigration means the action of coming to live permanently in a country, ie, not just as a visitor. If one does immigrate to SA (thus becomes a resident as defined) one will not be able to avoid the tax we were talking about, even if one works and earns overseas (source of earnings). That's the way the tax law reads.

The tax law these days is based on "residency" not "source" as in the somewhat distant past.
IIRC as a south African, if you "emigrate" but maintain ties - ie property, or anything that demonstrates you may return - then you will still have SA tax liability.

The tax laws are strict and complex (and not unique to South Africa).
There was a whole thread on this a while back.

Same applies for companies. If you have a company abroad but run it from SA, then it must pay SA tax.
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Re: Immigration - those coming back home - it's your turn.

Unread post by Jack Welles » Tue Dec 25, 2018 5:24 pm

cage wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 5:10 pm
Jack Welles wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 4:32 pm
Immigration means the action of coming to live permanently in a country, ie, not just as a visitor. If one does immigrate to SA (thus becomes a resident as defined) one will not be able to avoid the tax we were talking about, even if one works and earns overseas (source of earnings). That's the way the tax law reads.
The tax law these days is based on "residency" not "source" as in the somewhat distant past.
IIRC as a south African, if you "emigrate" but maintain ties - ie property, or anything that demonstrates you may return - then you will still have SA tax liability.
The tax laws are strict and complex (and not unique to South Africa).
There was a whole thread on this a while back.
Same applies for companies. If you have a company abroad but run it from SA, then it must pay SA tax.
Yep, it's far too complicated to go into on a forum but basically there are two tests: the "ordinarily resident" test and the "physical presence" test. The "ordinarily resident" test is, in turn, affected by any relevant double-tax treaties that may exist. Then the "tie-breaker" test can come into play.

"Residency" for the purposes of being liable for taxation is an extremely complicated area of tax law. Note also that the tax law concept of "residency" is different to the "residency" concept for immigration/emigration purposes or any other laws for that matter.
Jack Welles (thriller_author pen name)
https://www.amazon.com/Jack-Welles/e/B073VJQTTX
Eddie Haynes-Smart
Textbook - "The Lore of Negotiation"
http://www.loreofnegotiation.com
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Re: Immigration - those coming back home - it's your turn.

Unread post by paulw » Tue Dec 25, 2018 7:21 pm

cage wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 5:10 pm

IIRC as a south African, if you "emigrate" but maintain ties - ie property, or anything that demonstrates you may return - then you will still have SA tax liability.
I am no expert so don't quote me, but my understanding is that you will then be only liable on the potential income of that property and not the salary or other income you earn abroad.
cage wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 5:10 pm
Same applies for companies. If you have a company abroad but run it from SA, then it must pay SA tax.
The company will not be liable for tax but you managing it will be liable if you draw a salary.

Also my understanding. I may be wrong....
.
Don't believe what I post, research what I post....
They have a book on how to take my money away? When did this happen......
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Re: Immigration - those coming back home - it's your turn.

Unread post by cage » Tue Dec 25, 2018 7:36 pm

paulw wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 7:21 pm
cage wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 5:10 pm

IIRC as a south African, if you "emigrate" but maintain ties - ie property, or anything that demonstrates you may return - then you will still have SA tax liability.
I am no expert so don't quote me, but my understanding is that you will then be only liable on the potential income of that property and not the salary or other income you earn abroad.
cage wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 5:10 pm
Same applies for companies. If you have a company abroad but run it from SA, then it must pay SA tax.
The company will not be liable for tax but you managing it will be liable if you draw a salary.

Also my understanding. I may be wrong....
Wrong on both counts. Sad to say.
The laws are pretty thorough to make sure money is returned to SA and that taxes are paid.
Again, not an SA specific thing.

You have to be really careful if you have set up entities offshore. Anyway, this is serious thread drift.

Moral of the story, no free rides and the tax avoidance party will come to an end.
Far too many agreements to share information between countries so hiding it will become more difficult.
Last edited by cage on Tue Dec 25, 2018 7:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jack Welles
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Re: Immigration - those coming back home - it's your turn.

Unread post by Jack Welles » Tue Dec 25, 2018 7:38 pm

paulw wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 7:21 pm
cage wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 5:10 pm
IIRC as a south African, if you "emigrate" but maintain ties - ie property, or anything that demonstrates you may return - then you will still have SA tax liability.
I am no expert so don't quote me, but my understanding is that you will then be only liable on the potential income of that property and not the salary or other income you earn abroad.
cage wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 5:10 pm
Same applies for companies. If you have a company abroad but run it from SA, then it must pay SA tax.
The company will not be liable for tax but you managing it will be liable if you draw a salary.
Also my understanding. I may be wrong....
Sorry, paulw, but, on the facts as given, you are wrong. It's really not that simple. Please see my earlier post. If you really think I'm wrong I'd appreciate chapter and verse.

I like to think that with a B Com (Honours)(Tax Law)(UCT) and as an ex-Tax (Lawyer) Consultant (Touche Ross SA now Deloittes) I know a little something about the subject.

How does this affect the current topic? Well, it's simply that if you immigrate to SA (you will be a "resident" as defined) and you will pay tax in SA on your world-wide income. There is no way you can immigrate to SA and not be a resident for tax purposes, which is how this mini-diversion started.
Jack Welles (thriller_author pen name)
https://www.amazon.com/Jack-Welles/e/B073VJQTTX
Eddie Haynes-Smart
Textbook - "The Lore of Negotiation"
http://www.loreofnegotiation.com

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