Global warming

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sampie
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Re: Global warming

Unread post by sampie » Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:41 am

Yes there are many fakes out there or scientists that do not specialize in climate science that tries to skew the perception of the public funded by big oil So those will be exposed.

The phrase you quoted has been happening in big oil for decades, it's no secret, exactly what Zander have replied to above:

Furthermore about your quote:

Harrison Schmidt is a geologist

Schmitt’s credentials as a NASA astronaut are impressive, but he has significantly less experience in energy and climate science. He’s advocated mining Helium-3 on the moon and using it to fuel fusion reactors — a costly source of energy.

And while everyone is entitled to their opinions, facts are not negotiable.

NASA has accrued a vast plethora of evidence, which shows that the planet has warmed at an unprecedented rate in the past 1,300 years.

In a nutshell, Schmitt has claimed that arctic sea ice is growing in extent, and in 2009 was back to levels seen in 1989. There are two problems with this claim. The first is that it’s wrong; Schmitt used cherry-picked data from both of those years that made it seem as if the coverage of ice had grown, but in fact when you look at the monthly and yearly averages, it’s clear the extent of ice dropped by several percent.

The second problem is just as bad: sea ice extent is not a good measure of warming; instead, volume is a much better indicator. You can cover a lot of area of the arctic with ice, but if it’s thin ice it’ll melt in the summer. If, on the other hand, the ice is thicker (has more depth or volume) then it won’t melt as readily. So saying the ice covers more area — even if true which it clearly is not — doesn’t mean much, because a single particularly cold winter can freeze the surface water, but that’ll all melt easily once summer hits. However, if the Earth is warming, then you’d expect the volume of ice to decrease, since the increasing temperatures will actually affect water temperatures, melting the ice below the surface.

The extent of sea ice fluctuates with season as expected, but the volume of sea ice is steadily decreasing — in fact, the trend is that we’re losing 3500 cubic kilometers of arctic ice per decade! Not only that, but a more careful examination of sea ice extent shows that over time (many years as opposed as season to season), it’s decreasing as well. Again, if the world is warming that means longer summers and shorter winters, so even the maximum area of surface ice measured every year will wane.

This isn’t exactly, pardon the expression, rocket science. The graphs are pretty clear. Whether you think global warming is manmade or not, the fact of the matter is it’s occurring. We’re experiencing it right now, and all this noise and distraction and, frankly, distortion of the data won’t change that fact. Walking on the Moon is a magnificent achievement, but it doesn’t make you any more likely to be right when it comes to the climate.

Schmitt has not only repeatedly denied climate change, he’s disparaged leaders of the environmental movement as well. In an interview with right-wing radio host and conspiracy theorist Alex Jones, Schmitt said, “I think the whole trend really began with the fall of the Soviet Union. Because the great champion of the opponents of liberty, namely communism, had to find some other place to go and they basically went into the environmental movement.” As evidence against climate change being impacted by human activities, he said, “If you want to read some of the history of the American Revolutionary War, you will realize how damn cold it was back then.”

Trump himself has repeatedly denied climate change, calling it a Chinese hoax. And Texas Republican Lamar S. Smith is a top pick for NASA administrator.
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Re: Global warming

Unread post by HJK 414 » Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:02 am

sampie wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:41 am

..........Yes there are many fakes out there or scientists that do not specialize in climate science that tries to skew the perception of the public funded by big oil So those will be exposed.

Sampie,

And once again you write half a page to explain why the guy that does not conform to your views is a scientist that should be exposed...... #-o
It is a growing trend in which the "climate crowd" automatically explain why someone - who's services were used - suddenly needs to be "exposed" as he no longer subscribes to the "truth".

Makes one think - whether all those people have seen the "truth" or are they protecting their "money stream" ??
Never has so much money been poured into a "scientific" project - perhaps that is the appeal ...... :?:

I am not convinced - so you may have to double up on your CO2 saving efforts as I am certain my Carbon Footprint is bigger than yours - and I have no intention of changing it .......

Cheers

JK
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sampie
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Re: Global warming

Unread post by sampie » Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:42 am


Sampie,

And once again you write half a page to explain why the guy that does not conform to your views is a scientist that should be exposed...... #-o
Utter nonsense. You don't seem to actually understand that only those who are qualified to provide evidence can provide evidence #-o It is not My views it is The Unbiased Truth of Scientific Evidence. Not twisted cherry picked oil political propaganda mainly sponsored by big oil !
It is a growing trend in which the "climate crowd" automatically explain why someone - who's services were used - suddenly needs to be "exposed" as he no longer subscribes to the "truth".
It's not a "trend" Science is not a "trend" you seem to be greatly misled.
When someone that does not have the credentials tries to provide Scientific views in another field of expertise talks about something they do not have sufficient knowledge of, when it does not confirm to scientific truth, it is called misinformation and a lie. It is clear as day to see.
You don't see an animal doctor giving advice about human brain surgery !
Makes one think - whether all those people have seen the "truth" or are they protecting their "money stream" ??
Never has so much money been poured into a "scientific" project - perhaps that is the appeal ...... :?:
You seem to be repeating all the dribble that has been repeated before. There is absolutely nothing to think about, You yet again as so many other deniers in the past is trying to compare big oil's trillions upon trillions dollar industry earned through devastation upon the earth to the mere drop in the ocean spending for Climate Science.
I am not convinced - so you may have to double up on your CO2 saving efforts as I am certain my Carbon Footprint is bigger than yours - and I have no intention of changing it .......
Just because YOU are not convinced does not mean that the exposed truth by Climate Science is not what it is. Climate Scientists agree and That is what matters. Climate change is Very Real and have been proven countless of times over the years. YOU just chose to ignore it and disregard it, and that is your choice.
Last edited by sampie on Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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HJK 414
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Re: Global warming

Unread post by HJK 414 » Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:53 am

sampie wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:42 am
.................
Just because YOU are not convinced does not mean that the exposed truth by Climate Science is not what it is. Climate change is Very Real and have been proven infinite times over the years. YOU just chose to ignore it and disregard it, and that is your choice.

Sampie,

Thank you for that - it is indeed my choice and my "scepticism".

For what it is worth : today :

In Holland - 24 scientists have written a manifest to the Dutch Government with an appeal to stop this wasteful exercise as it is being driven by emotion and not by science ........ (perhaps they are not qualified either in your eyes .......?? ).....

Mr Berkhout - one of the founders of the manifest is member of the Dutch Academy of Science / and the TU in Delft
But then perhaps you could denounce those as well. (not listening to the "truth" it seems)

They have sent it to amongst other 380 councils - asking them to stop this process.

https://www.telegraaf.nl/nieuws/2967763 ... van-emotie

JK
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Re: Global warming

Unread post by Ray W » Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:30 pm

Ok gentlemen, lets not get too heated about this subject please
Old age & treachery will triumph over youth & skill
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Re: Global warming

Unread post by sampie » Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:37 pm

HJK 414 wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:53 am
sampie wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:42 am
.................
Just because YOU are not convinced does not mean that the exposed truth by Climate Science is not what it is. Climate change is Very Real and have been proven infinite times over the years. YOU just chose to ignore it and disregard it, and that is your choice.

Sampie,

Thank you for that - it is indeed my choice and my "scepticism".

For what it is worth : today :

In Holland - 24 scientists have written a manifest to the Dutch Government with an appeal to stop this wasteful exercise as it is being driven by emotion and not by science ........ (perhaps they are not qualified either in your eyes .......?? ).....

Mr Berkhout - one of the founders of the manifest is member of the Dutch Academy of Science / and the TU in Delft
But then perhaps you could denounce those as well. (not listening to the "truth" it seems)

They have sent it to amongst other 380 councils - asking them to stop this process.

https://www.telegraaf.nl/nieuws/2967763 ... van-emotie

JK
There is no mention of climate scientists collaborating on this announcement, only engineers and so called "other" experts so again likely an attempt at stirring disaray via a politically influenced announcement.

Science and proof thereof is and will never be based on emotion.

Peter Oosterling has been with shell for 30 plus years that obviously says a lot about where this article is coming from:
30+ years E&P professional with at Shell, E & P professional at Shell International

in that article Guus Bekhout merely admits its a difficult situation he does not comment on scientific evidence.
Last edited by sampie on Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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HJK 414
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Re: Global warming

Unread post by HJK 414 » Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:39 pm

Ray W wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:30 pm
Ok gentlemen, lets not get too heated about this subject please

OK Boss.

I was done anyway .....nothing to add.
Have a good weekend.

JK
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Marius Schrenk
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Re: Global warming

Unread post by Marius Schrenk » Sat Dec 29, 2018 1:02 pm

zander wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 12:41 pm
HJK 414 wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 12:25 pm
zander wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 12:13 pm

..........Your "facts" are wrong, Phosphates have been banned by various countries throughout the years that's why it has gone quiet not because it's been in use 20 fold !
..........

.......... 20 FOLD !!
Google the mining production figures .....

https://events.crugroup.com/phosphates/home

JK
No... i don't see a 20 fold increase in phosphate use sorry, i provided credentials, show me your article that states it.

The only possibility in the US will be because the big denier trump and his goons might have lifted the ban, that will mean phosphate use might increase again, big headache and problems he will be causing.
Zander with all respect.....the P used in dish washing liquid is a minute % of what is used in Agriculture. If you can explain how it would be possible to make plants/animals grow without P I would make the effort to read through your long winded posts.Until then I'm not convinced. :?
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Re: Global warming

Unread post by heisan » Sat Dec 29, 2018 1:15 pm

Ray W wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:30 pm
Ok gentlemen, lets not get too heated about this subject please
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Justin Schoeman

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Re: Global warming

Unread post by cage » Sat Dec 29, 2018 1:19 pm

Ray W wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:30 pm
Ok gentlemen, lets not get too heated about this subject please
The heat isn't man made, it's actually just the natural behaviour of the forum ;)
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Re: Global warming

Unread post by zander » Sat Dec 29, 2018 1:56 pm

Marius Schrenk wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 1:02 pm
zander wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 12:41 pm
HJK 414 wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 12:25 pm



.......... 20 FOLD !!
Google the mining production figures .....

https://events.crugroup.com/phosphates/home

JK
No... i don't see a 20 fold increase in phosphate use sorry, i provided credentials, show me your article that states it.

The only possibility in the US will be because the big denier trump and his goons might have lifted the ban, that will mean phosphate use might increase again, big headache and problems he will be causing.
Zander with all respect.....the P used in dish washing liquid is a minute % of what is used in Agriculture. If you can explain how it would be possible to make plants/animals grow without P I would make the effort to read through your long winded posts.Until then I'm not convinced. :?
I did not impose these bans, the relevant authorities overseas did, my opinion is that yes, phosphorus is needed, but it has to be regulated as too much of one thing can be bad.

As to dishwasher detergent

It all adds up

The impacts of wastewater treatment works on phosphate in rivers is a
consequence of sewage phosphorus and detergent phosphorus entering
the facility. Quayle et al. 27 estimated that detergent phosphorus made up
32% of the total phosphorus found in domestic sewage, and contributed
up to 30% of the phosphorus loading of receiving reservoirs.

In conclusion, levels of phosphate have recently dropped in South
African surface waters – a trend largely matching that seen more
recently in inorganic nitrogen. During this change, levels fell from a point
at which national guidelines were exceeded to a more acceptable level.
Despite the changes, phosphate levels, although tenfold lower, remain
relatively higher than inorganic nitrogen levels. These trends were found
on a national scale, and local variation may mask the trend in places.
Given the links between phosphate levels and eutrophication, decreased
phosphate loading bodes well for eutrophication management, although
internal phosphorus cycling will mean that eutrophic and hypereutrophic
water bodies will not recover in the immediate future. Nevertheless, the
recent period with decreased phosphate levels has been relatively short,
and no firm conclusions as to long-term phosphate levels can be made
as yet.

A major producer of laundry detergent in the country removed builder
phosphorus from all its products in 2010 18,27 , and a reduction in
wastewater effluent phosphorus at the majority of plants assessed was
noted a year later 18 . As noted above, this removal would have led to a
reduction of phosphate loading in receiving water bodies on a national
scale, and may partially explain the observed reduction in phosphate.
However, the reduction of phosphate reported here commenced in
2008 or 2009, and removal of phosphorus from laundry detergents in
2010 cannot account for these changes alone, although it is possible
that the phosphorus removal process started earlier. It seems likely
that a combination of reductions in nutrient loading from wastewater
treatment plants and the removal of builder phosphate from detergents
has contributed to the decrease in phosphate noted here.

Much has been written of the negative impact of South African wastewater
treatment works on river and reservoir trophic status. 14,15,21-23 Smaller
wastewater treatment works, which often have no phosphate removal
process and are more subject to failure, pose a greater risk in this regard
than do larger operations. 52 The Green Drop certification programme is
a benchmarking initiative that commenced in 2008 and aims to improve
wastewater management in the country. 53 Results from the scores have
shown better service delivery with time, but the improvement has not
been dramatic. 53,54 Given the recent start, this programme cannot assess
changes that happened before 2008. However, inspection of changes
in inorganic nitrogen show that levels after 2008 are about six times
lower than those around 2008, and three times lower than those around
2000. In comparison, phosphate levels decreased roughly fourfold
from around 2008 to later years. As wastewater treatment plants may
produce both nitrogen and phosphate in their effluents 32 , it is possible
that improvements in wastewater treatment, either in terms of facilities
or wastewater treatment works management, may have contributed
to the decrease in phosphate observed recently. The relatively
unchanged N:P ratio in the years since 2009 supports the likelihood that
decreases in both nutrients may have the same cause.


As noted earlier, the major widespread sources of phosphate in fresh water
in South Africa include agricultural effluent and sewage, with a significant
phosphate load coming from detergents, especially washing powders.
Agricultural effluent could comprise effluent from stocking-intensive
operations, nutrient-enriched returns from agricultural operations,
and other practices that release nutrients to ground- or surface water.
Phosphate is a highly charged and reactive ion that is strongly sorbed
by most sediments and which is capable of binding with a number
of metal cations, all of which limit its transport in groundwater. 44,45 In
contrast, nitrates are more labile but can be removed by denitrification. 46
Nevertheless, phosphates can move through soil, albeit slowly 44-45 , and
can be mobilised depending on soil and groundwater chemistry 47 . The
implication is that while nitrogen can leach from soil where agricultural
lands are fertilised or nutrient contaminated, phosphate leaching is likely
to be more limited, but can occur, particularly when nutrient application
has been prolonged. Phosphate input from agricultural regions can also
occur as surface water run-off. This contribution may be significant
when considering common thunderstorm rainfall events in South Africa,
in which soil that has been fertilised is washed off into water resources,
together with any adsorbed phosphorus compounds.
Last edited by zander on Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Global warming

Unread post by zander » Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:02 pm

Currently, this ban affects 11 states across the United States. Along with Illinois, those who have banned phosphorus in fertilizers are Maine, Maryland, Michigan, Minnesota, New Jersey, New York, Vermont, Virginia, Washington and Wisconsin. Other states have restrictions to the use of phosphorus without banning it completely.

Like many other states, in Illinois there are a few minor exemptions that allow certain industries to use phosphorus in their lawn care. For example, golf courses and sod farms are able to use phosphorus but are on strict guidelines of the state such as remaining a minimum of 3 feet away of water sources when applying. It is also prohibited to use on saturated or frozen ground to avoid the risk of runoff. Also, if a soil test determines a lack of phosphorous then phosphorous can be applied to a lawn as a corrective measure. Farmers are exempt from this ban as well.
Sum it up

To sum it up, phosphorus is necessary for plant growth but too much of it is harmful to the environment.
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Re: Global warming

Unread post by Marius Schrenk » Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:28 pm

Phosphorous is one of the most expensive minerals is the mix of macro(essential)elements for growth. Being(mostly) animal based (mostly marine)it is extremely scares on earth and accordingly expensive.....which is self limiting in agriculture. As you mention it is also not too mobile in soil. The inorganic fraction in soil (rock phosphate) is dissolved by organic acids secreted by roots.....and promptly taken up by the hungry roots. I would thus postulate that the cost of the mineral would limit its free use in agriculture (the biggest user) more than any law. My point still being that(efficient) photosynthesis without it is not possible at the moment.....and it has been this way for millions of years. :idea:Your point is taken on too much of a good thing being harmful. Selenium/Boron/ copper....also being useful for plant (and animal) growth being a case in point. 8-[
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Re: Global warming

Unread post by rare bird » Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:07 pm

Fransw wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:55 pm
Orthin Opter wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:43 pm
Jack Welles wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:00 pm
So save this climate change agnostic who is far too dof to follow all the arguments. Where are we in one sentence ... ?

For example, over long periods of time the earth goes through warmer and cooler cycles and what man (and cows breaking wind) is doing is helping to exacerbate the current warming cycle.

Does that about sum it up?
Jack, you beat me to it. As the world population increases and more red meat is consumed (except India, perhaps) so more cattle are farmed and more methane is emitted by them, us and swamps. Perhaps this too is a global warmer? Earlier MadMac referred to the hole in the ozone layer fixing itself. Ozone is O3 and is produced when lightning strikes, not many thunderstorms in Arctic regions yet apparently the hole is smaller?
Introducing the "Fartpack". Extracting about 300l of methane gas from the poor animal's gut per day.

So each cow is actually a mini power station!..
article-0-1D29733200000578-945_634x421.jpg
is there a methane/fartpack available for humans yet?
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Re: Global warming

Unread post by MadMacs » Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:39 am

Years ago a student from Stellenbosch University did a thesis on how the ozone layer hole size was a natural cycle. I remember this as it was shown on SABC tv and when submitted for peer review every scientist shot him down and I wonder what ever happened to this poor guy as he has since been proven to be correct. So much for the term scientist, I would rather trust an engineer any day.

By the way that was when freon was banned and the company that supplied its replacement made billions. Makes you think.
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