Immanuel Velikovsky - Real Science ;)

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vanjast
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Immanuel Velikovsky - Real Science ;)

Unread post by vanjast » Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:27 am

I really enjoy people that can really think, and embrace science at it's core... The ability to consider alternatives ;)
That's if you have 3 hours to spare :lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gouqy4OghyY


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWXNzOtRUe4
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Re: Immanuel Velikovsky - Real Science ;)

Unread post by heisan » Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:47 am

I would hesitate to call anything unsupported by experimental studies, or supported by any physical evidence, 'science'. The usual term for such works is 'fiction'.
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Re: Immanuel Velikovsky - Real Science ;)

Unread post by jvdl » Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:12 am

heisan wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:47 am
The usual term for such works is 'fiction'.
"Fiction" might be too kind a word... and "horse-manure" more appropriate.
Velikovsky's ideas have been almost entirely rejected by mainstream academia (often vociferously so) and his work is generally regarded as erroneous in all its detailed conclusions. Moreover, scholars view his unorthodox methodology (for example, using comparative mythology to derive scenarios in celestial mechanics) as an unacceptable way to arrive at conclusions. Stephen Jay Gould[34] offered a synopsis of the mainstream response to Velikovsky, writing, "Velikovsky is neither crank nor charlatan—although, to state my opinion and to quote one of my colleagues, he is at least gloriously wrong ... Velikovsky would rebuild the science of celestial mechanics to save the literal accuracy of ancient legends."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanuel_ ... #Criticism
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Re: Immanuel Velikovsky - Real Science ;)

Unread post by richard C » Mon Mar 18, 2019 2:08 pm

'Gloriously Wrong'

Now there is an epithet for the internet age, could use that term all day long !!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
Grant all equity and dignity.
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Re: Immanuel Velikovsky - Real Science ;)

Unread post by cage » Mon Mar 18, 2019 2:14 pm

richard C wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 2:08 pm
'Gloriously Wrong'

Now there is an epithet for the internet age, could use that term all day long !!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
I find that Dilbert often understands the "thought processes" of our average avcom 12345 debate-ist. Today is no exception.
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Re: Immanuel Velikovsky - Real Science ;)

Unread post by heinrich » Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:01 pm

The ability to consider alternatives
You mean alternatives like the Flat Earthers.... :lol:
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Re: Immanuel Velikovsky - Real Science ;)

Unread post by cage » Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:15 pm

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Re: Immanuel Velikovsky - Real Science ;)

Unread post by vanjast » Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:48 pm

... and extending on real reality, believe it or not :wink:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qkekAVM0AA
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Re: Immanuel Velikovsky - Real Science ;)

Unread post by Orthin Opter » Sat Mar 23, 2019 9:18 am

A few years ago, a fellow by the name of Galileo espoused a theory that said the world orbited around the sun, which was at the centre of our universe. Well this did not go down too well with the scientists of the day, nor the Catholic church which threatened to burn him at a stake for having such heretical ideas. He recanted and was allowed to live. So much for the scientists of 'the day.'
Are today's scientists any different? When someone espouses a theory which does not follow the mainstream, he is immediately ridiculed, just a Galileo was. #-o
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Re: Immanuel Velikovsky - Real Science ;)

Unread post by heisan » Sat Mar 23, 2019 11:44 am

Orthin Opter wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 9:18 am
A few years ago, a fellow by the name of Galileo espoused a theory that said the world orbited around the sun, which was at the centre of our universe. Well this did not go down too well with the scientists of the day, nor the Catholic church which threatened to burn him at a stake for having such heretical ideas. He recanted and was allowed to live. So much for the scientists of 'the day.'
Are today's scientists any different? When someone espouses a theory which does not follow the mainstream, he is immediately ridiculed, just a Galileo was. #-o
OK - this is a very interesting statement you make. Lets look at it in some detail.

Way back when, before the birth of Christ, there were philosophers, who studied natural philosophy, or 'ideas of how the world worked'. Once they had a philosophy well worked out, they would share it at a forum and/or write a book about it. Other philosophers would use mathematics, observation and logic to prove/disprove these philosophies, and would in turn present their findings in forums and writings. But the exchange of ideas would continue. Ideas which could not be proven were discarded, those that could persisted and were extended and enhanced.

By around 300BC the generally accepted philosophy was that the planets circled the sun, and the moon circled the Earth.

Then along came this thing called 'organised religion'. Organised religion became the centre of public learning as they were the only ones providing teaching of any form to the public at large. Every town and village had a priest who taught all the people the church's message. Now that message was based on faith.

One of the lessons that they taught was that the Earth was the centre of the universe. This lesson was based solely on an idea from the bible. There was no critical thought, analysis or debate involved. In fact, they went so far as to kill people who disagreed with their teachings.

So now we have some context for the opening statement. We have two groups of people - natural philosophers who use rigorous logic, mathematics, formal proofs and debate to prove their ideas, and organised religion who use faith and control of the only effective mass media to share their ideas.

Now apply these concepts to this thread, and decide which group is which...
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Re: Immanuel Velikovsky - Real Science ;)

Unread post by C Africa » Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:09 pm

Orthin Opter wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 9:18 am
A few years ago, a fellow by the name of Galileo espoused a theory that said the world orbited around the sun, which was at the centre of our universe. Well this did not go down too well with the scientists of the day, nor the Catholic church which threatened to burn him at a stake for having such heretical ideas. He recanted and was allowed to live. So much for the scientists of 'the day.'
Are today's scientists any different? When someone espouses a theory which does not follow the mainstream, he is immediately ridiculed, just a Galileo was. #-o
Just to add to what Heisan said.

The story is actually NOT that he espoused the theory, he was actually able to prove an existing theory (he found the evidence using the worlds best telescope which he himself had built*). Oh, and I think it is not Galileo that we are talking about but rather the man with all the conspiracies in his last supper painting!

C

*The people who espoused the theory, were able to come up with a theoretical "proof" of their theory, but which they were unable to demonstrate because the telescope did not exist at the time. They claimed that if it were ever possible to improve sight to such an extent that one can observe Venus closely, one would find that Venus also has phases (full Venus, Half Venus etc), and were able to show how these would differ depending on whether it circled the earth of the sun).
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Re: Immanuel Velikovsky - Real Science ;)

Unread post by vanjast » Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:31 pm

heisan wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 11:44 am
.. We have two groups of people - natural philosophers who use rigorous logic, mathematics, formal proofs and debate to prove their ideas, and organised religion who use faith and control of the only effective mass media to share their ideas.

Now apply these concepts to this thread, and decide which group is which...
You're probably missing another group, the artist and the dreamers who come up with then 'crazy' ideas of which a lot of which might be just plain nutz, but over time these ideas can evolve into reality.

As soon as we close our minds, we stop learning. :)

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