First ever "black hole" image!

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rainier
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Re: First ever "black hole" image!

Unread post by rainier » Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:51 pm

Jack Welles wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:57 pm

Damn difficult being a science doofus 8-[ :lol:
Really Jack - buy the book I mentioned the title of. It is actually a very good and easy read. Very funny in places too. Once you are done I promise you can mingle with a couple of physicists at a dinner party and talk quantum stuff without them noticing you know nothing. It allows you to throw in a suitably controversial statement, then take your glass of vino and chips and watch the arguments unfold.
Who said the sky is the limit ? I think not.
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Re: First ever "black hole" image!

Unread post by GRAHAMW » Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:14 pm

Einstein could also not grasp the fundamentals of the quantum world but check out this video which gives a good overview of the history of Quantum physics and where we are now.

Last edited by Ugly Duckling on Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Embed the YouTube link
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Re: First ever "black hole" image!

Unread post by C Africa » Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:20 pm

Jack, If you don't understand it, you are in good company, the scientists don't understand it either. They just observe and formulate theories to describe what they observe. Then they go out and design tests to try and disprove their own theories. If they are unable to disprove the theory, and the observations match the theory, then the theory is "accepted".

So with regard to electrons being either at A or B. what they have established and which is supported by complicated and intriguing experiments, is that the electron is BOTH at point A AND at point B. That is until you LOOK at it (i.e. find any way to determine its position) at which point it will then be at only one place. what appears to be that 100 000 is at one point and 1000 at the other is just that the probability of finding the electron at point A is 99% greater than finding it at point B.

I know, it makes NO SENSE whatsoever, not to the scientists either, but that is just the way it works. It becomes even more ridiculous if you consider that point A and point B are not like being either in the kitchen or the lounge, its more like being either in Cape Town or Pretoria (or then being in both at the same time).

Oh, and did you know that anti particles travel back in time?


C
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Re: First ever "black hole" image!

Unread post by Jack Welles » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:29 am

Okay, okay <covering his head in shame> this is clearly way above my pay grade and I now cry "Uncle!".

Glad you guys understood it wasn't a troll. Was more hoping for the "instant understanding" I got from Avcom of where the debate lies with climate change and nuclear power vs renewables to mention but two topics. Do appreciate the responses though ...

There are clearly more things in Heaven and Earth ...
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Re: First ever "black hole" image!

Unread post by Iceberg » Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:31 am

I Saw a program on Einstein and Hawking last night.
Hawking postulated in 1974 that black holes 'leak' radiation - so the idea that nothing gets out is flawed.
This was big news in the science world at the time and has been proved. It is used in tracking them down.
Furthermore, they say through this 'leaking' (whatever that is), a black hole can actually disappear altogether! :?

You learn something new about this every day....
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Re: First ever "black hole" image!

Unread post by Fransw » Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:28 am

Jack Welles wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:29 am
Okay, okay <covering his head in shame> this is clearly way above my pay grade and I now cry "Uncle!".

Glad you guys understood it wasn't a troll. Was more hoping for the "instant understanding" I got from Avcom of where the debate lies with climate change and nuclear power vs renewables to mention but two topics. Do appreciate the responses though ...

There are clearly more things in Heaven and Earth ...
Oom Jack, enjoy and appreciate the end product. Don't dig to deep!..

Edit: Leave that to the Icebergs and Heisans of the world! :)
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Re: First ever "black hole" image!

Unread post by C Africa » Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:58 pm

Jack Welles wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:29 am
Okay, okay <covering his head in shame> this is clearly way above my pay grade and I now cry "Uncle!".

Glad you guys understood it wasn't a troll. Was more hoping for the "instant understanding" I got from Avcom of where the debate lies with climate change and nuclear power vs renewables to mention but two topics. Do appreciate the responses though ...

There are clearly more things in Heaven and Earth ...
It was exactly to demonstrate just exactly how ridiculous the science appears to be that Schrodinger invented his cat analogy!

I.e. for the science to be true, the cat would have to be both dead AND alive before you check up on him!


C
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Re: First ever "black hole" image!

Unread post by vanjast » Thu Apr 18, 2019 12:00 am

Einstein for all his brilliance and errors made a very perceptive statement, about keeping things simple.

Most science up to this point has gone into convoluted theories, most building on one convoluted theory, to prove another convoluted theory, and in so doing made an even bigger mess.

Quantum theory is one such idea, and can only go down the the 'imaginary' internals of the atom - we can observe effects and postulate, but we sure as hell cannot define exactly.
We've allowed our views to be clouded by past 'discoveries'...This is going nowhere fast, and science is getting lost.
Time for a new ideas, a complete 'reset' of science ;)

So to claim observations as something definite, is fools folly, even after the 'blackhole inventor' has changed his mind.
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Re: First ever "black hole" image!

Unread post by rainier » Thu Apr 18, 2019 11:55 am

vanjast wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 12:00 am

Quantum theory is one such idea, and can only go down the the 'imaginary' internals of the atom - we can observe effects and postulate, but we sure as hell cannot define exactly.
We've allowed our views to be clouded by past 'discoveries'...This is going nowhere fast, and science is getting lost.
Time for a new ideas, a complete 'reset' of science ;)
Quantum theory is a little different. Yes it is a "theory" and a very incomplete one at that. What we know is based on observation and a couple of guesses. But what makes it different to say, string theory, is that it has practical applications. The electronics industry in particular is making good use of the practical side quantum theory. Even the weird stuff - quantum computing and even more interesting: quantum communication. Seems unlike scientists, engineers are not too interested in the "how does it work ?" but rather go straight for "what can we do with it ?".
Who said the sky is the limit ? I think not.
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Re: First ever "black hole" image!

Unread post by vanjast » Sat Apr 20, 2019 2:21 am

:wink:
Current tech is the direct result of quantum theory - We're an 'average' of our existence.
Theoretical physics/astronomy is where it's at... to bring out the new tech.
That is not to say that we're have already arrived... but have not been informed.

On my side I'm happy to say that I'm related to direct links to current Aviation, current Theoretical/Astrophysics/Physics, and Engineering... and I'm happy as a 'pig in sh.it', I'm home :lol:
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Re: First ever "black hole" image!

Unread post by Darren » Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:26 pm

vanjast wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 12:00 am
Einstein for all his brilliance and errors made a very perceptive statement, about keeping things simple.

Most science up to this point has gone into convoluted theories, most building on one convoluted theory, to prove another convoluted theory, and in so doing made an even bigger mess.

Quantum theory is one such idea, and can only go down the the 'imaginary' internals of the atom - we can observe effects and postulate, but we sure as hell cannot define exactly.
We've allowed our views to be clouded by past 'discoveries'...This is going nowhere fast, and science is getting lost.
Time for a new ideas, a complete 'reset' of science ;)

So to claim observations as something definite, is fools folly, even after the 'blackhole inventor' has changed his mind.
Given that scientists have been able to smash atoms and see the exact predicted measurements at the exact predicted locations, times, and intensities, it would be incorrect to say that any of that is imaginary. Scientists are generally a cautious lot, and if you read the papers are at pains to separate out what has been proven by experimentation or observation from what has not been.

e.g. Compare the way the Higgs Boson was spoken of before the ATLAS & CMS confirmations at the Large Hadron Collider and how it was spoken of afterwards.

The existence of black holes is not in any doubt, especially not after this image. Notably, again, this was about the scientific method: The researchers involved first predicted what this specific black hole would look like via this type of imaging, then after they got the image they compared it to their predictions to see whether it matched. It did.

Here's a fun question to test someone's understanding of black holes: What would happen to Earth's orbit if the sun turned into a black hole of the same mass tomorrow?
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Re: First ever "black hole" image!

Unread post by skytrooper » Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:34 pm

From what i can recall reading, nothing will happen, only once you enter the EH will you become doomed.
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Re: First ever "black hole" image!

Unread post by Darren » Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:36 pm

skytrooper wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:34 pm
From what i can recall reading, nothing will happen, only once you enter the EH will you become doomed.
Exactly! Mass is mass: The gravitational forces from the sun or a black hole with the sun's mass are the same.
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Re: First ever "black hole" image!

Unread post by Tony Forrester » Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:04 pm

A black hole? Hmmm, I was under the impression that it was any form of charity or government into which ALL funds disappeared, and nothing emerged, ever again. :shock:
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Re: First ever "black hole" image!

Unread post by C Africa » Sat Apr 27, 2019 10:05 pm

Tony Forrester wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:04 pm
A black hole? Hmmm, I was under the impression that it was any form of charity or government into which ALL funds disappeared, and nothing emerged, ever again. :shock:
Ah, you see, just like the other black holes, this is a fallacy and some things CAN escape. In this instance rich politicians or charity organisers.

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