Hypocrisy defined

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Marius Schrenk
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Re: Hypocrisy defined

Unread post by Marius Schrenk » Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:19 pm

Triaan wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:29 am
Meeting_Ferté_Alais-0008.JPG
We are "later" now....what are you proposing we feed the jet engines of today ???. Do you suggest we should now power the world economy by solar/hydro and windpower.???.....ore maybe atomic power stations ??
Not quite "later" enough yet, Airbus have designed an Electric Fan already and tested it with great results, so it's getting there, Batteries need to be improved still or another source must be found which there are a few possibilities of.

The point is that the change will be gradual, jet engines is not all of a sudden going to be replaced, it will happen over a stretch of time when the time is right.
:D The funny thing is that the "batteries" or should we call it "energy storage devices)would yet again consist of cells that produce methane....granted in a closed circuit (contained) system. Exciting times ahead.....just shows you what we have been robbed of all those years by the oil industry. 8-[ #-o
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Re: Hypocrisy defined

Unread post by Triaan » Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:32 pm

There are many ways one can debate lithium batteries with both positives and negatives, weighing up the end result to fossil fuels is what would be important. However lithium batteries will be primitive in comparison to what eventually will power electric aircraft/vehicles in the future. Think of Lithium batteries as the "start of the century" product.

This is just an example of a work in progress more with regards to endurance.
https://www.theepochtimes.com/uci-stude ... 65069.html

Then a clean source:
https://www.ucsusa.org/clean-vehicles/e ... cells-work

Hydrogen Fuel cells, though these still require more development, and safety tests. They are getting better each year.

Think of the electric revolution as in it's infancy stage, the future of the ways to power these machines is barely being discovered.

We have the motor that is as good as it gets in terms of power to weight ratio as well as super low maintenance with most parts being solid state, you have for example 2 to four bearings and a shaft/bell that turns. That's it, no complicated gearbox, oil changes, crankshafts,pistons,filters,plugs, pulleys water/oil pumps, injectors, turbos and virtually no wear and tear, just replace bearings after 10-20 years of use.

So all we need now is to perfect the power source.
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Re: Hypocrisy defined

Unread post by Wilco » Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:54 pm

[/quote]
Wilco, You didn't "catch me out" sorry for you ;)

"Concrete examples" is not needed when transformation already started ;)

Solar power added more new capacity in 2017 than did coal, gas, and nuclear plants combined. China leads with more than half of world's new solar capacity; global solar investment jumps 18 percent to $160.8 billion; cumulative renewable energy investment since 2004: $2.9 trillion
[/quote]

Nicofly,
Exactly, gradual change is happening and major capital investments are being made.

I have known this as have (I am certain) all of the posters here that just shake their heads at climate change alarmists. But the likes of “climate change champions” make it seem nothing is done and like a spoiled kid just scream “ I want it now” and become hysterical. And the true climate change champions are the scientists, engineers, and venture capitalists working together to deliver sustainable energy alternatives while utilizing the efficiency of market forces.

So why all of the pathetic alarmist BS by Leo and friends. Based on the actions of the looney left and their friends, one would think nothing is being done....virtue signaling at its finest and most nauseating. Like I said, empty vessels make the loudest noise.
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Re: Hypocrisy defined

Unread post by HJK 414 » Sat Aug 03, 2019 3:33 pm

Wilco wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:54 pm


Nicofly,
Exactly, gradual change is happening and major capital investments are being made.

I have known this as have (I am certain) all of the posters here that just shake their heads at climate change alarmists. But the likes of “climate change champions” make it seem nothing is done and like a spoiled kid just scream “ I want it now” and become hysterical. And the true climate change champions are the scientists, engineers, and venture capitalists working together to deliver sustainable energy alternatives while utilizing the efficiency of market forces.

So why all of the pathetic alarmist BS by Leo and friends. Based on the actions of the looney left and their friends, one would think nothing is being done....virtue signaling at its finest and most nauseating. Like I said, empty vessels make the loudest noise.

=D> =D> =D>

JK
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Re: Hypocrisy defined

Unread post by nicofly » Sat Aug 03, 2019 3:55 pm

Wilco wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:54 pm

Nicofly,
Exactly, gradual change is happening and major capital investments are being made.

I have known this as have (I am certain) all of the posters here that just shake their heads at climate change alarmists. But the likes of “climate change champions” make it seem nothing is done and like a spoiled kid just scream “ I want it now” and become hysterical. And the true climate change champions are the scientists, engineers, and venture capitalists working together to deliver sustainable energy alternatives while utilizing the efficiency of market forces.

So why all of the pathetic alarmist BS by Leo and friends. Based on the actions of the looney left and their friends, one would think nothing is being done....virtue signaling at its finest and most nauseating. Like I said, empty vessels make the loudest noise.
Wilco,
I don't know where you get your views from but it sure is amusing to watch :lol:

We don't scream we want it now ! The deniers scream that Human Induced Climate Change is non existent or not a problem ! !

Indeed empty vessels makes the loudest noise, the propagandists they linked to Everytime was caught out to Decieve, Lie , Cherry pick and twisting the facts, Loud noises with empty words exploited right there and then, the lies these propagandists preached was simply pointed out to them, then they scream cry and pretend to be "the victim" pathetic at best. #-o :lol:

The Truth shakes the ground hardest ;)
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Re: Hypocrisy defined

Unread post by zander » Sat Aug 03, 2019 4:01 pm

nicofly wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 3:55 pm
Wilco wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:54 pm

Nicofly,
Exactly, gradual change is happening and major capital investments are being made.

I have known this as have (I am certain) all of the posters here that just shake their heads at climate change alarmists. But the likes of “climate change champions” make it seem nothing is done and like a spoiled kid just scream “ I want it now” and become hysterical. And the true climate change champions are the scientists, engineers, and venture capitalists working together to deliver sustainable energy alternatives while utilizing the efficiency of market forces.

So why all of the pathetic alarmist BS by Leo and friends. Based on the actions of the looney left and their friends, one would think nothing is being done....virtue signaling at its finest and most nauseating. Like I said, empty vessels make the loudest noise.
Wilco,
I don't know where you get your views from but it sure is amusing to watch :lol:

We don't scream we want it now ! The deniers scream that Human Induced Climate Change is non existent or not a problem ! !

Indeed empty vessels makes the loudest noise, the propagandists they linked to Everytime was caught out to Decieve, Lie , Cherry pick and twisting the facts, Loud noises with empty words exploited right there and then, the lies these propagandists preached was simply pointed out to them, then they scream cry and pretend to be "the victim" pathetic at best. #-o :lol:

The Truth shakes the ground hardest ;)
=D> =D> :lol:
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Re: Hypocrisy defined

Unread post by zander » Sat Aug 03, 2019 4:04 pm

Wilco wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:54 pm
but I would never profess or proclaim to either be a climate change denier or a climate change believer.....

Off to fire up my pickup truck, blast the AC and go get some charcoal for tonight’s barbecue.
You do not "profess" nor "proclaim" to either side yet you act as if you don't give didly squat about climate change !

Nothing new, deniers often show signs of double standards.
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Re: Hypocrisy defined

Unread post by Wilco » Sat Aug 03, 2019 4:31 pm

Back in the day (a long long time ago) didn’t Greenland or the UK have a much warm climate than their current one?
So what changed? Man made climate change back then? We have geological data showing that the earth has gone thru periods of tremendous cooling as well as warming.....

https://www.bgs.ac.uk/discoveringGeolog ... mples.html

The Earth has gone thru cycles over its many years...reliable climate data has only been available for 150 years.
Is this a trend or an outlier in the data we have been seeing in the last 10 years?

So my question is how could the climate change so drastically thousands of years ago, with anthropogenic CO2 and greenhouse gases being a minuscule fraction of what they are today? Unless, the wooly mammoth packed one heck of a concentrated methane fart...or just imagine the emissions from a T-Rex!!

Funny part is one asks these questions and they are deemed a denier. If asking questions, applying critical thought is the sign of a double standard, then I am guilty as charged.
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Re: Hypocrisy defined

Unread post by Marius Schrenk » Sat Aug 03, 2019 4:42 pm

Wilco wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 4:31 pm
Back in the day (a long long time ago) didn’t Greenland or the UK have a much warm climate than their current one?
So what changed? Man made climate change back then? We have geological data showing that the earth has gone thru periods of tremendous cooling as well as warming.....

https://www.bgs.ac.uk/discoveringGeolog ... mples.html

The Earth has gone thru cycles over its many years...reliable climate data has only been available for 150 years.
Is this a trend or an outlier in the data we have been seeing in the last 10 years?

So my question is how could the climate change so drastically thousands of years ago, with anthropogenic CO2 and greenhouse gases being a minuscule fraction of what they are today? Unless, the wooly mammoth packed one heck of a concentrated methane part.

Funny part is one asks these questions and they are deemed a denier. if asking questions, applying critical thought is the sign of a double standard, then I am guilty as charged.
In Switzerland Roman sandals were discovered in passes over mountains that's been snowed over for millennia....that too makes the discoverers deniers. :? #-o
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Re: Hypocrisy defined

Unread post by Triaan » Sat Aug 03, 2019 5:07 pm

Wilco wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 4:31 pm
Back in the day (a long long time ago) didn’t Greenland or the UK have a much warm climate than their current one?
So what changed? Man made climate change back then? We have geological data showing that the earth has gone thru periods of tremendous cooling as well as warming.....

https://www.bgs.ac.uk/discoveringGeolog ... mples.html

The Earth has gone thru cycles over its many years...reliable climate data has only been available for 150 years.
Is this a trend or an outlier in the data we have been seeing in the last 10 years?

So my question is how could the climate change so drastically thousands of years ago, with anthropogenic CO2 and greenhouse gases being a minuscule fraction of what they are today? Unless, the wooly mammoth packed one heck of a concentrated methane fart...or just imagine the emissions from a T-Rex!!

Funny part is one asks these questions and they are deemed a denier. If asking questions, applying critical thought is the sign of a double standard, then I am guilty as charged.
Interesting questions:

The science is saying the following:

There have been several times in Earth’s past when Earth's temperature jumped abruptly, in much the same way as they are doing today. Those times were caused by large and rapid greenhouse gas emissions, just like humans are causing today.

Those abrupt global warming events were almost always highly destructive for life, causing mass extinctions such as at the end of the Permian, Triassic, or even mid-Cambrian periods. The symptoms from those events (a big, rapid jump in global temperatures, rising sea levels, and ocean acidification) are all happening today with human-caused climate change.

Evidence suggests that the Medieval Warm Period may have been warmer than today in many parts of the globe such as in the North Atlantic. This warming thereby allowed Vikings to travel further north than had been previously possible because of reductions in sea ice and land ice in the Arctic. However, evidence also suggests that some places were very much cooler than today including the tropical pacific. All in all, when the warm places are averaged out with the cool places, it becomes clear that the overall warmth was likely similar to early to mid 20th century warming.

Since that early century warming, temperatures have risen well-beyond those achieved during the Medieval Warm Period across most of the globe. The National Academy of Sciences Report on Climate Reconstructions in 2006 found it plausible that current temperatures are hotter than during the Medieval Warm Period. Further evidence obtained since 2006 suggests that even in the Northern Hemisphere where the Medieval Warm Period was the most visible, temperatures are now beyond those experienced during Medieval times. This was also confirmed by a major paper from 78 scientists representing 60 scientific institutions around the world.

Secondly, the Medieval Warm Period has known causes which explain both the scale of the warmth and the pattern. It has now become clear to scientists that the Medieval Warm Period occurred during a time which had higher than average solar radiation and less volcanic activity (both resulting in warming). New evidence is also suggesting that changes in ocean circulation patterns played a very important role in bringing warmer seawater into the North Atlantic. This explains much of the extraordinary warmth in that region. These causes of warming contrast significantly with today's warming, which we know cannot be caused by the same mechanisms.

So yes, the climate has changed before humans, and in most cases scientists know why. In all cases we see the same association between CO2 levels and global temperatures.

Past examples (those that were destructive) involving rapid carbon emissions (just like today) were generally highly destructive to life on Earth.
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Re: Hypocrisy defined

Unread post by Wilco » Sat Aug 03, 2019 5:14 pm

And that is my point.
What is rapid? What is the time period? And what is the quantity?
Are today's emissions considered rapid compared to those eons ago?
Or was it some weird catastrophic event that caused a rapid emission and the atmosphere was not able to act as a sink?
Is what is being emitted today considered to be rapid compared to those historical events?
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Re: Hypocrisy defined

Unread post by Ugly Duckling » Sat Aug 03, 2019 5:35 pm

Diesel generator for a car charging station.
The Greenies need to decide which of the 2 evils are better #-o
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Re: Hypocrisy defined

Unread post by Triaan » Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:05 pm

Wilco wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 5:14 pm
And that is my point.
What is rapid? What is the time period? And what is the quantity?
Are today's emissions considered rapid compared to those eons ago?
Or was it some weird catastrophic event that caused a rapid emission and the atmosphere was not able to act as a sink?
Is what is being emitted today considered to be rapid compared to those historical events?
Rapid is when volcanic related mass extinctions occurred, so it would be those at the end of the Permian, Triassic, and mid-Cambrian periods.

This is what i could find on the science in terms of numbers.

The burning of fossil fuels and changes in land use results in the emission into the atmosphere of approximately 34 billion tonnes of carbon dioxide per year worldwide, according to the U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA).

The fossil fuels emissions numbers are about 100 times bigger than even the maximum estimated volcanic CO2 fluxes.

Volcanic discharges would have to be shown to be very mistaken before volcanic CO2 discharges could be considered anything but a bit player in contributing to the recent changes observed in the concentration of CO2 in the Earth's atmosphere.

Each mass extinction event corresponded to periods of quickly changing atmospheric CO2. When CO2 changes slowly, the gradual increase allows mixing and buffering of surface layers by deep ocean sinks. Marine organisms also have time to adapt to the new environmental conditions. However, when CO2 increases abruptly, the acidification effects are intensified in shallow waters owing to a lack of mixing.
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Re: Hypocrisy defined

Unread post by Wilco » Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:20 pm

Triaan wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:05 pm
Wilco wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 5:14 pm
And that is my point.
What is rapid? What is the time period? And what is the quantity?
Are today's emissions considered rapid compared to those eons ago?
Or was it some weird catastrophic event that caused a rapid emission and the atmosphere was not able to act as a sink?
Is what is being emitted today considered to be rapid compared to those historical events?
Rapid is when volcanic related mass extinctions occurred, so it would be those at the end of the Permian, Triassic, and mid-Cambrian periods.

This is what i could find on the science in terms of numbers.

The burning of fossil fuels and changes in land use results in the emission into the atmosphere of approximately 34 billion tonnes of carbon dioxide per year worldwide, according to the U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA).

The fossil fuels emissions numbers are about 100 times bigger than even the maximum estimated volcanic CO2 fluxes.
Triaan, thanks for the well researched and thought out post...these are the posts and discussions that are actually constructive to the climate debate as opposed to the virtue signaling we are seeing in Sicily.

I wonder how that number would compare to volcanic related mass (not single) extinctions.

I am assuming that 100 times bigger stat cited by the EIA is for a single volcanic catastrophic event?

Then what resulted in global cooling eons ago? They say it was volcanic ash and other catastrophes (from what I recall). So how can a catastrophic emission of volcanic ash cause global warming in one case and also has been blamed from global cooling...

The other thing to consider is the composition of the atmoshere then vs now...differences in atmospheric composition and concentration of then vs now could also effect how greenhouse gases affected the planet...took an atmospheric chemistry class in college and while interesting I had more questions afterwards...its a fascinating subject with tons of nuances
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Re: Hypocrisy defined

Unread post by Triaan » Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:55 pm

Indeed volcanos can do both:

Large amounts of sulfur dioxide lead to short-term cooling (on the scale of tens of years), while carbon dioxide and methane then cause long-term global warming (lasting hundreds of thousands of years). These climate changes may directly lead to the extinction of sensitive species and prompt others to shift their ranges, upsetting ecosystem dynamics and triggering additional extinctions.

For a more complete breakdown regarding the figures.

Volcanoes emit CO2 both on land and underwater. Underwater volcanoes (since 1960) emit between 66 to 97 million tonnes of CO2 per year. However, this is balanced by the carbon sink provided by newly formed ocean floor lava. Consequently, underwater volcanoes have little effect on atmospheric CO2 levels. The greater contribution comes from subaerial volcanoes (subaerial means "under the air", referring to land volcanoes). Subaerial volcanoes are estimated to emit 242 million tonnes of CO2 per year (Mörner and Etiope (2002)).
In contrast, humans are currently emitting around 34 billion tonnes of CO2 per year (EIA).

I am not sure exactly what the extinction volcano's emitted i could not find a figure, however as stated in the previous post human caused emissions are a 100 times worse than the extinction volcano events emissions back then. Thats what i could find.
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