Degradation of societies / individualism

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Re: Degradation of societies / individualism

Unread post by snoopy » Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:36 pm

In the USA nonconformity to main stream belief and theory in society, can (since 30 May 2019) have you labelled by the FBI as a domestic terrorism threat...so as of May, fringe theory is "verboten" in the USA.

Crazy but true.

An old maxim of wisdom though says - Wise people should question, encourage, coach and challenge one another... iron sharpens iron.
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Re: Degradation of societies / individualism

Unread post by Christo » Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:49 pm

It's about 15 min of fame, klaar! Look at the coverage this guy is getting!!

Pretty sure Trump has said he has nothing against legal immigration, if you choose to 'ignore' that to further your own agenda well....
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Re: Degradation of societies / individualism

Unread post by Jack Welles » Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:58 pm

Christo wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:49 pm
It's about 15 min of fame, klaar! Look at the coverage this guy is getting!!

Pretty sure Trump has said he has nothing against legal immigration, if you choose to 'ignore' that to further your own agenda well....
The problem arises when you have to define "legal" Immigration. Obviously someone applying for a green card etc is a legal immigrant. But if you consider the international laws on asylum seekers (that most countries have signed up to) then you will find that someone genuinely seeking asylum who has entered a country informally is not considered an "illegal" immigrant because he or she is acting under the abovementioned laws.

So now you have to differentiate between a "genuine" asylum seeker (thus legal) and who is an economic migrant (thus illegal) etc.

And that's when the fight started :lol:
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Re: Degradation of societies / individualism

Unread post by Wilco » Mon Aug 05, 2019 3:12 pm

Jack,
Therein lies the rub.
There are laws on the books for people to claim asylum. They have to enter the country through one of our ports of entry - not how most of them are doing it now.

Also, 90% of those that claim asylum do not show up for their hearings (straight from data compiled by the Department of Homeland Security)
https://ijr.com/dhs-secretary-whopping- ... w-hearing/

For the 10 percent that show up, 80% of the cases are not approved and only 20% are.

So, out of 100 individuals; 90 don't show up for their asylum hearings. Out of the 10 that do only 2 get valid asylum. So that is 2 out of 100 that have valid asylum cases.

So yes , claiming asylum by many is bogus. They use legal loopholes to set foot in the country. Once in, you can only keep them in detention for a couple of weeks and set them free while they are awaiting their court hearings. Once they are let go, they just disappear into the communities..It's all well organized...They know the flaws in the system and they exploit them to their fullest advantage.....And for those that say they illegals are a net gain to the economy...Hmm, dunno….

For example, illegals contribute $2 billion in taxes to California but cost the state of California close to $30 billion.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/reco ... -000-in-ny

Like I said there is lots more to it than the little snippets you hear on the news that makes is seem like these people are legitimate asylum seekers. 99% are just economic illegal immigrants.

And if they are truly asylum seekers, why do they have to pass thru so many countries before they claim asylum. Folks from El Salvador, Honduras etc pass thru a few countries before they reach the USA. Or once they make it out of El Salvador and make it to a neighboring country they can apply for asylum at any US consulate/embassy abroad - why make that long trek???.....
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Re: Degradation of societies / individualism

Unread post by Wilco » Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:44 pm

There are millions of Hispanics in the USA that have worked all their lives - paid taxes and have been the building blocks of that society !!
A spell of 2 minutes on Google would have taught him that Hispanics form the lowest % of incarcerated people in the US.
Black males > 40% / White Males around 39% and Hispanics 19% ….. so one wonders where the "sentiment" against the Hispanics (immigrants), as high up as the White House comes from.
HJK,
Take a read. That 19% incarceration rate for Hispanics would be considerably higher because even the reporting in some states is "PC"...I am just pointing out that "statistics" sometimes do not tell us the whole story and further research is always good (be it climate change, crime, the economy etc...)

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 ... suspects-/
The vast majority of “white” suspects on the Texas Department of Public Safety’s “10 Most Wanted Fugitives” all have something in common: They are not white.

An eagle-eyed Redditor posting in a Donald Trump thread late Tuesday night noted how TDPS lumps all Hispanic suspects under a “white” designation. The same criteria, however, is not applied to victims in the Bureau of Justice’s Criminal Victimization Report, which reports to the U.S. Department of Justice. Victims can be separated by race and ethnicity.

“For victimization the Bureau of Justice releases a Criminal Victimization Report (2014), which includes racial categories of black, white, Hispanic and other,” wrote user Reborn. “This obviously makes it appear that whites are responsible for a much greater share of violence than is actually the case, and on the other side it makes it seem like the percentage of black crime has gone down relative to the other races.”



The list of “Most Wanted” individuals includes:
•Benjamin Dominguez (white): Wanted for indecency with a child by exposure, probation violation. Gang affiliation: Barrio Azteca.
•Raul Ambrosios Jimenez Jr. (white): Wanted for sexual assault of a child, traffic of person under 18 – prostitution, probation Violation. Gang affiliation: Texas Syndicate.
•Justin Lane Slatton Jr. (white): Wanted for murder (2 Counts) and burglary of building. Gang affiliation: Latin Kings.
•Freddie Alaniz (white): Wanted for murder, sexual assault of a child, possession of marijuana.
•Jose Fernando Bustos-Diaz (white): Flight-escape to avoid prosecution for homicide.
•Jamie Gonzalez (white): Wanted for possession of child pornography, unlawful flight to avoid prosecution
•Israel Aguirre (white): Wanted for murder.
•Eusebio Deleon (white): Wanted for murder and unauthorized use of a motor vehicle.
•Iris Iliana Rodriguez (white): Wanted for indecency with a child by sexual contact, indecency with a child, unlawful restraint, harassment.
•Tommy Dale Sells Jr. (white): Wanted for aggravated sexual assault of child under 14 (2 Counts), indecency with child by contact.
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Re: Degradation of societies / individualism

Unread post by excolonial » Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:08 pm

The deterioration of US society predates Trump, so I do not think that is a reasonable link. The constant pressure applied by the left, aided and abetted by a very corrupt and relentless media, which has been largely unchallenged has created a pressure cooker environment. It is natural to assume that those unstable fringes of society will eventually erupt into violence.

Modern America

Rights without responsibilities.
Destruction of the family unit.
Untreated/mistreated psychosis, and other mental illness
Prescription drug misuse - i.e. over/false prescription, addiction, abuse.
Relentless media distortion and inflammation of events along racial grounds
Rampant corruption in the US security services and indeed the department of justice itself.
Identity politics....

All of these things will lead many dispossessed people looking for a way to make their voice heard, believing that the "system" has failed them.
Sadly this has happened from both sides, look at the cold blooded murder of the policemen by that deranged individual, was trump to blame for him too?

At a basic level, I am inclined to believe that this is actually a direct result of the no blame culture being espoused and championed mostly by the left and so called liberals. The view is somewhat along the lines that no-one is evil, and that all ills can be treated, all behaviours modified. This conveniently ignores real evidence that Psychopaths, and sociopaths are almost untreatable, and the only variable is the extent to which they should be controlled.

Add the huge preponderance of nerd fantasy movies, filled to the brim with graphic violence, often perpetuated by nerds with assault rifles, and it all seems rather like conditioning to me.
The older I get, the more I am convinced that "A Confederacy of Dunces" is non fiction.
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Re: Degradation of societies / individualism

Unread post by Wilco » Tue Aug 06, 2019 3:25 pm

Excolonial,

Excellent analysis. I just wanted to add that I believe 22 of the last 24 mass shooters grew up in single parent households where the father had minimal interaction with them.

What I find interesting about the media coverage of the El Paso and Dayton shootings is that much more air time is given to the El Paso shooting.
Could the reason be because the Dayton shooter had a very pro Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren stance on his social media profile....In addition, he was a supporter of ANTIFA and wanted to dox and shoot Immigration and Customs officials. So just as the nutter in El Paso was "right wing", the nutter in Dayton was "left wing"; but the MSM barely mention the Dayton shooter because they want to associate the El Paso shooter with Trump and his rhetoric. It's not a left wing/right wing thing; it's mental illness that causes these people to do act out the way they do.

If you remember a couple of years ago, a hard core Bernie supporter went on a rampage against Republican members of Congress while they were practicing for a softball match. Rep. Scalise was seriously injured before Capitol Police staff killed the shooter. Had it not been for their swift action, we would have had many more casualties that day.....However; I do distinctly remember the media (CNN, MSNBC, WaPo, NYTimes) trying to minimize the connection between the shooter and his pro Bernie and very anti Republican views. NOT ONE SINGLE member of the media or Congress came out and said, hey this was Bernie's fault. Bernie's rhetoric encouraged this guy...But with this latest shooting, the MSM and some Dem members of Congress are trying to do whatever they can to smear Trump and say it was his rhetoric.....

What is also interesting is that over the weekend there were 73 shootings in Chicago alone. Not sure how many resulted in deaths; but 73 people got shot....Not a peep or perhaps the story was buried somewhere on page 5 of the NY Times....
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Re: Degradation of societies / individualism

Unread post by excolonial » Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:40 pm

Yes indeed Wilco, I sometimes wonder what precisely these media types are trying to achieve. Do they actually believe what they say, or are they just a bunch of narcissists/sociopaths bent on self enrichment/fame at all costs? Surely they must be fearful that the division and hatred they are stirring up will reach them in their ivory towers at some point, or at the very least make them significantly less free in their own societies?

Funnily enough, I believe that a vote for trump was a protest vote against both parties, much in the same vein as a vote for Obama.

Then again, I am not certain that the whole thing is not just a dog and pony show meant to keep us occupied while "they"(who are not a united conspiracy, rather a bunch of extremely powerful and wealthy people pulling the strings to suit their various agendas) carry on plundering the economy. Divide and rule, a strategy used repeatedly throughout history, albeit with a new focus on deliberate forceful misinformation from both sides leaving everyone uncertain as to what the truth may be.

Solutions? These seem impossible to implement as each side refuses outright to countenance the others ideas.

One thing is certain, big government is never the soluition to our problems.
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Re: Degradation of societies / individualism

Unread post by MadMacs » Wed Aug 07, 2019 12:09 am

Maybe Tulsi Gabbard can save America, if she isn't bumped off of course
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Re: Degradation of societies / individualism

Unread post by danie.e » Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:53 am

In my humble opinion, Excolonial sums it up quite accurately:

"they"(who are not a united conspiracy, rather a bunch of extremely powerful and wealthy people pulling the strings to suit their various agendas) carry on plundering the economy. Divide and rule, a strategy used repeatedly throughout history

One need only to look in our own country and the latest news craze about the Ramaphosa election campaign. It is eye opening to see how many economically influential people (who have amassed vast fortunes) actually contributed to his campaign to ensure he is elected - I have no doubt that they contributed knowing very well that they will gain from their "modest" donations.

Money is power and power corrupts.
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Re: Degradation of societies / individualism

Unread post by Piggy-Hawk » Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:18 pm

May I recommend a few books?

Much of what is being discussed here have been discussed in VOLUMES of books (I'll only recommend a few for now, but these are MUST READ BOOKS), ranging from identity, ideology, intolerance, political correctness etc.

Start with Jordan Peterson's 12 Rules for Life.

Then read a book of Slavoj Zizek - pick any one.

Peterson is seen as a bit of a right winger, which I don't believe he is.

Zizek is an outspoken Marxist on the far left and he is viewed as the new Karl Marx and even has a huge poster of Stalin in his house.

He's the bugger starting projects like "Occupy Wall Street", banning patents, and makes statements such as "the only thing wrong with radical transformation is the fact that it is radical".

Both are polar opposites, but many of their views are the same. Where they differ, Peterson gets my support, but Zizek remains one of the brightests people alive today.

If you can, listen to their lectures, keeping in mind that it is very difficult to listen to Zizek.

Zizek is a bit more outspoken and would make a public statement such as "Immigrants are murderers, rapists and thieves" and then goes on to explain why they should be let in and not be kept out.

If someone questions his political incorrectness for example, then he would tell a very offence joke, but in the same breath buries that argument forever.

In line with with other Avcom topics such as climate change, the infographics thread, etc. read or listen to Hans Rosling.

His last book, published after his death is called "Factfulness" and is a brilliant guide to interpret facts and stats for yourself, such as the climate change debate, poverty, immigration, inequality, etc. He called it getting rid of the "gap instinct".

A little bit more on the boring side is Noam Chomsky.

He participates in many social and economical debates, but he's actually a linguist. Where Zizek and Peterson are left and right, he's more liberal.

What makes him amusing is his ways with words.

He would for example argue that being conservative does not imply that you cannot be liberal and that conservatism does not necesarilly imply conserving old ideas and old values which don't work.

He would also lash out about the word "equality", stating why it is a stupid word and a stupid idea, and then goes on to explain why the word "prosperity" is a better choice (where his linguistic skills come in). Prosperity implies that you can be and get what you strive for - everyone is different and some view prosperity as being a quant in Frankfurt, and other view it as leisurely walking through the orchards on your farm or serving the best cup of coffee in your own coffee shop.

This prosperity allows you to be who and what you want, but in no way will the quant, the farmer or coffee shop owner ever be equal in any way, apart from all being happy (a constant state which Peterson believes does not exist).

If you don't want to read too much, at least read Peterson and Rosling's book.
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Re: Degradation of societies / individualism

Unread post by excolonial » Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:55 pm

Agreed on much of the above with the caveat that all these viewpoints must be seen as what they are - highly subjective and affected by the psychological make up of the authors, with all the inherent neuroses, bias and sometimes malice.

Peterson is clearly an extremely intelligent man, and I think his work is the best of those mentioned, as it seems he has for the most part managed to provide guidance without letting his own issues manifest themselves. I believe he has introspected to the point of near self destruction, albeit whilst helping as many people as he can to live a better life - no easy task for sure.

Factfulness is often quoted to me these days, but I think people have taken his work without enough critical thought applied. He has a collectivist approach and I believe this compromises the qualitative value of his work.

As for me I prefer reading non fiction which does not propose to offer solutions or guidance, but often offer deep insights in the simple relation of a life lived, usually less ordinary than most. At best they offer an unvarnished view into how each handle the challenges, frustrations, sadness they encounter as they make their way through life.

I find that the books of the type you mentioned often stick in my brain in a way that is more limiting than liberating, and this is effectively a type of conditioning I personally don't find useful.

Simply put, I like Aristotle I loathe Freud.
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Re: Degradation of societies / individualism

Unread post by Iceberg » Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:03 pm

I like the books of the German writer Rolf Dobelli.

Specifically, "How to think clearly" and "Living the good life".

These subjects are treated in a succinct way and expose how we often think in completely the wrong way.
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Re: Degradation of societies / individualism

Unread post by Wilco » Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:08 pm

As for me I prefer reading non fiction which does not propose to offer solutions or guidance, but often offer deep insights in the simple relation of a life lived, usually less ordinary than most. At best they offer an unvarnished view into how each handle the challenges, frustrations, sadness they encounter as they make their way through life.
Agreed. I started reading the works of the the Stoics. I recently purchased Marcus Aurelius' " Meditations" and Seneca's "Letters from a Stoic".

My goal this year during layovers is less mindless internet surfing, streaming fewer movies on Netflix, etc., and reading more non-fiction. So far, so good!
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Re: Degradation of societies / individualism

Unread post by excolonial » Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:25 pm

Wilco wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:08 pm

Agreed. I started reading the works of the the Stoics. I recently purchased Marcus Aurelius' " Meditations" and Seneca's "Letters from a Stoic".
I was not aware that Marcus Aurelius was anything other than a brilliant general until quite recently (I am clearly a philistine). I will certainly be reading that quite soon.
The older I get, the more I am convinced that "A Confederacy of Dunces" is non fiction.

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