Helicopters and Hunting

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Jack Welles
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Re: Helicopters and Hunting

Unread post by Jack Welles » Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:40 am

Airwayfreak wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:17 pm
[And this is the gist of the discussion. Hunting farms breed animals for hunting, nothing else. And there is nothing wrong with that. Just like we breed sheep and cows for human consumption. It will be foolhardy to slaughter every single animal and not have anything left to continue breeding. But this is not conservation.
I know that virtually no-one ever changes their mind because of an exchange of ideas on social media, so my pursuing this isn't to suddenly try and make you a believer in the concept hunting can be good for conservation. It is to try and identify the area of disagreement (in what should be a simple evaluation) for my own satisfaction, which I confess is selfish curiousity.

You have agreed that the hunting game farmers clearly have an interest in bio-diversity and promoting diverse bloodlines because that obviously leads to a sustainable supply of animals to hunt. Now that activity would clearly constitute "conservation" as defined if the animals were not to be hunted.

So it seems to me that the crux of the matter is that the only difference between your position and the position of those that claim that hunting can be considered conservation is the "intention" behind those activities. If they were not "intended" to facilitate hunting those activities would indeed constitute conservation.

This is much like the definition of, for example, murder where mens rea (or intention) is a key element that needs to be present for a particular action (given the other definitional elements are there) to be considered murder.

Currently I am satisfied that nowhere in any definition of "conservation" that I have come across is "intention" mentioned as a necessary prerequisite for a particular activity to be considered conservation, but that doesn't mean that that doesn't exist. It might just mean that I haven't come across it.

Thanks for the debate. It has been largely civilized. My curiousity is satisfied now.
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Re: Helicopters and Hunting

Unread post by Airwayfreak » Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:43 am

Swartbok wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:19 pm
In my opinion, I agree with Sunbird, the biggest threat is habitat loss.
Definitely. This and the construction of fences that interfere with natural migratory routes.
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Re: Helicopters and Hunting

Unread post by Airwayfreak » Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:52 am

Jack Welles wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:40 am

Currently I am satisfied that nowhere in any definition of "conservation" that I have come across is "intention" mentioned as a necessary prerequisite for a particular activity to be considered conservation, but that doesn't mean that that doesn't exist. It might just mean that I haven't come across it.

Thanks for the debate. It has been largely civilized. My curiousity is satisfied now.
I concur. There may be ancillary conversations that spring forth, but I just want to say something about the definition of conservation. Conservation can be defined as the process of preventing the exploitation of natural resources. This is of course "intentional" Before I get crucified, I am not saying hunting is exploiting natural resources, and this takes us back to hunters ensuring the sustainability of the industry with breeding projects, but we can ask the question, why do conservation efforts exist? They exist primarily because species were eradicated in the last century and even quite recently by massive and unrestrained hunting operations, and as Sunbird says, the loss of habitat due to human endeavour. which is of course, intentional.
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Re: Helicopters and Hunting

Unread post by C Africa » Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:49 pm

Airwayfreak wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:52 am
Jack Welles wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:40 am

Currently I am satisfied that nowhere in any definition of "conservation" that I have come across is "intention" mentioned as a necessary prerequisite for a particular activity to be considered conservation, but that doesn't mean that that doesn't exist. It might just mean that I haven't come across it.

Thanks for the debate. It has been largely civilized. My curiousity is satisfied now.
I concur. There may be ancillary conversations that spring forth, but I just want to say something about the definition of conservation. Conservation can be defined as the process of preventing the exploitation of natural resources. This is of course "intentional" Before I get crucified, I am not saying hunting is exploiting natural resources, and this takes us back to hunters ensuring the sustainability of the industry with breeding projects, but we can ask the question, why do conservation efforts exist? They exist primarily because species were eradicated in the last century and even quite recently by massive and unrestrained hunting operations, and as Sunbird says, the loss of habitat due to human endeavour. which is of course, intentional.
It is unfortunate that the definition of "hunting" is so wide. In terms of the definition of hunting, the people who work at an abattoir are also hunters.

The massive and unrestrained "hunting' that you refer to was certainly not "sport hunting". It was done by:
* Commercial hunters
* Farmers protecting wither their crops or their grazing
* Government sponsored programs (masses of animals were eradicated because it was believed that they cause diseases).


The only reason why wild animals were allowed back into these areas, is because hunters pay the farmer to rather farm with game than with anything else. Switching back to game, restores the original ecology, including both fauna and flora.



C
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Re: Helicopters and Hunting

Unread post by Marius Schrenk » Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:51 pm

Airwayfreak wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:43 am
Swartbok wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:19 pm
In my opinion, I agree with Sunbird, the biggest threat is habitat loss.
Definitely. This and the construction of fences that interfere with natural migratory routes.
I too agree with Sunbird. That is why I host wild animals at my own cost on my farm. However I need to do it SUSTAINABLY...else its pie in the sky. Like believing I can buy up all the historic "migratory routes" (Every town/ road/railroad/fence) between the Kalahari and the Springbok flats....return it to "prestien" unfenced wilderness....and dream of zero poaching and neighbourly love.
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Re: Helicopters and Hunting

Unread post by Marius Schrenk » Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:56 pm

Airwayfreak wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:52 am
Jack Welles wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:40 am

Currently I am satisfied that nowhere in any definition of "conservation" that I have come across is "intention" mentioned as a necessary prerequisite for a particular activity to be considered conservation, but that doesn't mean that that doesn't exist. It might just mean that I haven't come across it.

Thanks for the debate. It has been largely civilized. My curiousity is satisfied now.
I concur. There may be ancillary conversations that spring forth, but I just want to say something about the definition of conservation. Conservation can be defined as the process of preventing the exploitation of natural resources. This is of course "intentional" Before I get crucified, I am not saying hunting is exploiting natural resources, and this takes us back to hunters ensuring the sustainability of the industry with breeding projects, but we can ask the question, why do conservation efforts exist? They exist primarily because species were eradicated in the last century and even quite recently by massive and unrestrained hunting operations, and as Sunbird says, the loss of habitat due to human endeavour. which is of course, intentional.
In your definition all agricultural activity is anti conservation as in "exploitation of natural resources" (as is wind/solar farms). How do you suggest we nourish 10 billion people on earth ? :?In my experience if you exploit nature long enough it always win by bankrupting you
Last edited by Marius Schrenk on Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Helicopters and Hunting

Unread post by ou toppie » Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:02 pm

ABW wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:08 am
Have never got my head around hunting for trophy’s. I nevertheless flew many clients around the South Sudan in the late seventies. Yambio for Bongo and Tambura out west for large elephant. In those days it involved days of proper tracking where the animal had a chance. Not so today with helicopter spotting. As for Sudan today I shouldn’t think there is an animal alive!
Good Day AWB,
Hope you don't mind me asking but where were you flying out of when you were taking clients into Yambio and Tambura? the Congo(Zaire as it was in the 70's) Kenya or Uganda?
I was in Dinder park in the north during the early 90's and there was a healthy population of small game, leopard and even wild dogs but no elephant.
If you have a look at https://www.nationalgeographic.com/maga ... -wildlife/ it tells an interesting story.

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Re: Helicopters and Hunting

Unread post by Marius Schrenk » Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:30 pm

Airwayfreak wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:35 am
Marius Schrenk wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:39 pm
Timbavati is a lekker example. They hunt the Kruger's overflow....in exchange of grazing and a outsourced Western and Southern game fence.
:lol: :lol: :lol: So you reckon the fences came down between Kruger and Timbavati/Klaserie to exchange hunting for grazing?

But to answer your question as you insist. Culling is, of course, the obvious answer and this happens all the time. So I'm not sure why you ask the question. Culling is not a hunting operation but is a direct intervention for conservation purposes, so that question is moot and has nothing to do with the debate about hunting supporting conservation efforts
So help me out here. If you need to "cull" animals where are you planning to keep the "donated" animal you suggested earlier? Why do you "cull" at all? The animals die in the process. ?(all of them in the long run....100%)You could have "donated" them to other parks. :idea: as you suggested "conservation" minded individuals should be doing. If you hunted them you would have had more money to spend on "conservation"(I suspect you culled only the low value female animals and hunted the high value male trophies) How do your hunting outfitter identify which is your animals and which belong to us taxpayers as owners of the Kruger park.? :? :roll:Do you tag or hot burn yours. :?
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Re: Helicopters and Hunting

Unread post by Swartbok » Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:29 pm

Here is another point of view then.

I’ll buy your argument that my farming is not your conservation, so stop crying when my farmed animals end up being hunted and in photos which is then the essence of their end goal of farming, and do a better job with your conservation for survival of species, but for heavens sake, don’t you and your conservation friends blame hunting as anti conservation, and as said, don’t cry when a farmed animal ens up on a photo.

Airwayfreak, I think you said you own a game farm, I think you said you co founded (or something) a conservation organization, and I believe you are advocating dropped fences for migration.
Please send me pics of the big day when you drop yours and turn your “game farm” into a piece of veld, or do co-founding directors of conservation NGO’s not do such things ? (everyone else should and not farm for hunting)
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Re: Helicopters and Hunting

Unread post by Airwayfreak » Sat Aug 24, 2019 3:07 pm

Swartbok wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:29 pm
Here is another point of view then.

I’ll buy your argument that my farming is not your conservation, so stop crying when my farmed animals end up being hunted and in photos which is then the essence of their end goal of farming, and do a better job with your conservation for survival of species, but for heavens sake, don’t you and your conservation friends blame hunting as anti conservation, and as said, don’t cry when a farmed animal ens up on a photo. Wow, cognitive reading really seems to be a problem here. I never once said hunting is anti-conservation. I'm also not crying when animals bred for hunting get shot. FOR THE LAST TIME, ALL I'M SAYING IS THAT THE HUNTING FRATERNITY DOES NOT SUPPORT CONSERVATION EFFORTS. <<moderated - language>>

Airwayfreak, I think you said you own a game farm, I think you said you co founded (or something) a conservation organization, and I believe you are advocating dropped fences for migration.
Please send me pics of the big day when you drop yours and turn your “game farm” into a piece of veld, or do co-founding directors of conservation NGO’s not do such things ? (everyone else should and not farm for hunting) I was talking specifically about the fences coming down between Timbavati/Klaserie and the Kruger. This happened several decades ago so I'm afraid the photos will have faded by now. Mr Schrenk seems to think is was to swop hunting rights for grazing. I'm saying this happened for other reasons excluding your allusion to migratory routes as well. Your sarcasm regarding founding directors is also duly noted, but perhaps you should read the posts properly before resorting to this type of comment. Please highlight where I have ever said you should not farm for hunting? If you read properly, I actually said hunting has its merits because it brings in much needed foreign capital and provides employment. You guys should really stay away from the klippies and coke when addressing a keyboard
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Re: Helicopters and Hunting

Unread post by Swartbok » Sat Aug 24, 2019 3:37 pm

I concur that you have not said “hunting is ant-conservation or that farming for hunting should not be allowed. For that reason you were not personally addressed in the first half of my post.

As for the 2nd part of my post, I include a quote from you below, in which I you did say fences are a problem (noted now, that you meant Timbavati etc. in a conversation with Marius).
Yet I’m still a strong believer that someone should put their actions where their convictions lie, because it seems that a person cannot hunt and conserve at the same time.

Understanding??
I’ll get back to my Brand now, thank you.
Airwayfreak wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:43 am
Swartbok wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:19 pm
In my opinion, I agree with Sunbird, the biggest threat is habitat loss.
Definitely. This and the construction of fences that interfere with natural migratory routes.
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Re: Helicopters and Hunting

Unread post by Swartbok » Sat Aug 24, 2019 3:59 pm

Airwayfreak wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 3:07 pm
Swartbok wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:29 pm
Here is another point of view then.

I’ll buy your argument that my farming is not your conservation, so stop crying when my farmed animals end up being hunted and in photos which is then the essence of their end goal of farming, and do a better job with your conservation for survival of species, but for heavens sake, don’t you and your conservation friends blame hunting as anti conservation, and as said, don’t cry when a farmed animal ens up on a photo. Wow, cognitive reading really seems to be a problem here. I never once said hunting is anti-conservation. I'm also not crying when animals bred for hunting get shot. FOR THE LAST TIME, ALL I'M SAYING IS THAT THE HUNTING FRATERNITY DOES NOT SUPPORT CONSERVATION EFFORTS. <<moderated - language>>

Airwayfreak, I think you said you own a game farm, I think you said you co founded (or something) a conservation organization, and I believe you are advocating dropped fences for migration.
Please send me pics of the big day when you drop yours and turn your “game farm” into a piece of veld, or do co-founding directors of conservation NGO’s not do such things ? (everyone else should and not farm for hunting) I was talking specifically about the fences coming down between Timbavati/Klaserie and the Kruger. This happened several decades ago so I'm afraid the photos will have faded by now. Mr Schrenk seems to think is was to swop hunting rights for grazing. I'm saying this happened for other reasons excluding your allusion to migratory routes as well. Your sarcasm regarding founding directors is also duly noted, but perhaps you should read the posts properly before resorting to this type of comment. Please highlight where I have ever said you should not farm for hunting? If you read properly, I actually said hunting has its merits because it brings in much needed foreign capital and provides employment. You guys should really stay away from the klippies and coke when addressing a keyboard
Having read it again, I’ll concede that my very last sentence in brackets, is not what you have said.
However conservation movement in general mostly support anti-hunting and drive social media and other drives to name and shame hunters. So apologies for assuming your NGO does this as well.

I look forward to support from your NGO in explaining to fanatic conservationists that their views on hunting (not conservation) are incorrect.
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Re: Helicopters and Hunting

Unread post by Swartbok » Sat Aug 24, 2019 4:30 pm

And Airwayfreak, in conclusion then, (well at least from me), I have not helped you find the answer as why your hunting friends are unhappy about the photo, but at least had an input for you to formulate an answer as to why they should not be upset about the photo, ie

for a conservation animal (if it was one) the photo is ghastly and wrong, but as it seems it is a farmed animal, it’s perfectly normal and healthy practice and not anti-conservation in any way.

Edit: I’m guessing they may have only pretended to be upset as they might know that you are into conservation.

Hope this helps.
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Re: Helicopters and Hunting

Unread post by Airwayfreak » Sat Aug 24, 2019 4:47 pm

Swartbok wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 3:37 pm

As for the 2nd part of my post, I include a quote from you below, in which I you did say fences are a problem (noted now, that you meant Timbavati etc. in a conversation with Marius).
No, you still have it wrong.

Constructing fences that inhibit migratory routes are a problem.

The fences between Kruger and Timbavati/Klaserie were removed. I never said this was a problem at all. I was merely discussing the reasons for their removal and it had nothing to do with migratory routes nor for swopping hunting rights for grazing.
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Re: Helicopters and Hunting

Unread post by Swartbok » Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:15 pm

Airwayfreak wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 4:47 pm
Swartbok wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 3:37 pm

As for the 2nd part of my post, I include a quote from you below, in which I you did say fences are a problem (noted now, that you meant Timbavati etc. in a conversation with Marius).
No, you still have it wrong.

Constructing fences that inhibit migratory routes are a problem.

The fences between Kruger and Timbavati/Klaserie were removed. I never said this was a problem at all. I was merely discussing the reasons for their removal and it had nothing to do with migratory routes nor for swopping hunting rights for grazing.
Well we all understood it that fences in general, even farmers fences are a problem, and responded accordingly, because I’m sure if you go back far enough, any fence constructed would impede migratory routes and territories.

Apologies then, I assumed you were the bad kind of conservationist (you know, the kind that posts photos of hunters to name and shame them and destroy their lives), turns out then you may be one of the good conservationists that would advocate hunting at conferences and in public.

Not sure why I made that assumption at all.
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