Helicopters and Hunting

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Re: Helicopters and Hunting

Unread post by southside » Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:27 am

The trophy hunters I have come across all claim they love and respect the wildlife, and by them hunting they contribute to the future conservation of wildlife. I call bulloks, and my opinion is that if they cared so much, instead of spending money on shooting the animal, they would just donate the money directly to conservation, and leave the animal alone.
I don't have a problem with people hunting for meat or biltong. But how anyone can take pleasure in shooting a Leopard,Lion,Cheetah,Carakal ect is beyond me. It is just an ego thing. Look what I shot and how great it looks on my wall. As someone mentioned above, those animals can't shoot back. They are always very proud of themselves though. I have even seen tears of joy after a man shot a lion :roll: :roll: :roll: And don't kid yourself thinking that all these animals die quickly. Allot are not kill shots and have to be chased down while they suffer with shattered limbs or bleed out. Shooting a Carakal is extremely difficult, instead traps are often set for them that break there leg, the hunter comes along with a handgun the next morning and puts it out of its misery.
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Re: Helicopters and Hunting

Unread post by Swartbok » Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:42 am

You guys need to look into what happens to all animals, big and small and how they are eradicated for the protection of the integrity of hectares and hectares of Kale, baby spinach and all the health superfoods the greenies are sharing selfies of, and even just normal veggies.

Edit: and killing animals for sporting a new leather pair of shoes, fancy briefcase and impressing people with your Mini’s interior. Sounds a lot like the vanity of look at me, look at me, that trophy hunters are accused of, at the expense of animals.

Eg. Who really eats crocodile en mass ?
Nice belts and shoes.
Last edited by Swartbok on Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Helicopters and Hunting

Unread post by excolonial » Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:44 am

The irony is, trophy hunting may be better for the genetic diversity of the species if it is managed correctly. I had an interesting conversation about bear hunting in Alaska with one of the guides, and he made it clear that he would do his best to stop his client shooting anything other than an old bear that has had many seasons of breeding and passing on his genes to the next generation. the random shoot it because it is a bear, or even for the pot may well have the opposite effect.

This guy even encouraged us to release the larger salmon and keep the smaller ones for the pot - but that was not simply for species protection - the little ones tasted better and were usually early returners unlikely to spawn successfully anyway. He denies it, but I am pretty sure he released a trophy I had tied up to take to the Fish and Game weighing station for a competition weigh in, and in doing so almost certainly cost me USD15k in prize money.

I don't see the joy in trophy hunting, but then there are actually people who don't enjoy flying!! :shock:
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Re: Helicopters and Hunting

Unread post by kudu177 » Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:03 pm

Airwayfreak wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:22 pm
Hunting is a commercial operation designed to make money for the hunting operations, farmers etc. This is not a bad thing because it does bring in foreign revenue and creates employment. But there is absolutely no connection to conservation. Hunting does not support conservation of species in any way whatsoever. The hunting fraternity occasionally makes claims that hunting supports conservation, but this is totally unfounded
I'm sorry to burst your bubble but your statement is wrong. The benefits for conservation that come from hunting is nuanced and complicated. So I will give the most direct example I know.

SA has roughly 22,500 white rhino plus a few thousand black rhino. The white rhino "boom' has been largely driven by trophy hunting.

In the 1960s, Ian Player and his fellow conservationists relocated roughly 1000 white rhino to overseas zoos and game parks elsewhere in Africa.

In the 1970s, when the rhino population had recovered to sustainable numbers, they agreed that white rhino could be hunted for trophies. Rhino numbers soon began to rocket, even as poachers began to slaughter the rest of Africa's rhinos.

Trophy hunting gave the animals a commercial value (you may say it put a price of their heads) but either way, that value gave ranchers an incentive to farm them. (This commercial incentive works the same way for any game animal, whether it is reared for sale to other game ranchers, game reserves or hunters).

As long as there is a market for rhinos -- and as long as private ownership is allowed -- then rhino numbers will continue to increase.

Some farmers have speculated in rhino horn in the hope that the CITES trade ban will be lifted (some of these farms look like great cattle ranches, only with rhinos) has also boosted the rhino population.

The point is, hunting had a direct effect by boosting rhino numbers, hence conserving them.

I am a "greenie" (I have also, on this forum been called a "looney leftie" more than once which makes me happy) but I support ethical trophy hunting.

I don't understand why some wankers have to pose over a dead lion that they shot in an enclosure, or grin over a dead kudu -- must be compensating for a certain lack of "manliness" -- and I think the canned lion hunting/breeding business is revolting and disgraceful. But if that kudu had led a good kudu-life on a farm and was dispatched cleanly and earned the game farmer money to breed more kudus -- some of whom would be shot -- then that is conservation.

It is regrettable but true that trophy hunting hunting is the greatest income generator in the wildlife business. Two days ago I was on a rugged farm in Zimbabwe which has a shedload of leopards. Shooting a leopard there will cost you $50,000 -- and that's cheap -- but that money goes back into the conservancy.

There is no way you could charge $50,000 for a photo safari.

If objections to trophy hunting are about animal welfare, we should stop eating meat altogether. Of course populations of cows, sheep and pigs would decline rapidly because there would be no incentive to own them (which would be good for the planet -- more water and less methane) and abattoir workers would be spared PTSD and there would be no feedlots full of cattle spending their short, miserable lives standing knee-deep in their own <<moderated - language>>.

Finally, for imminent global social media outrage, just wait till they start culling elephants in Botswana and Zimbabwe. The herds are huge and growing and human/animal conflict is increasing rapidly. There is no solution but a massive cull, and it will be extremely distressing and ugly and it won't even be trophy hunters doing the shooting.

Paul
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Re: Helicopters and Hunting

Unread post by Airwayfreak » Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:08 pm

kudu177 wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:03 pm

I'm sorry to burst your bubble but your statement is wrong. The benefits for conservation that comes from hunting is nuanced and complicated. So I will give the most direct example I know.

SA has roughly 22,500 white rhino plus a few thousand black rhino. The white rhino "boom' has been largely driven by trophy hunting.

In the 1960s, Ian Player and his fellow conservationists relocated roughly 1000 white rhino to overseas zoos and game parks elsewhere in Africa.
With respect. I sat on the same board of directors as Dr Ian Player. The white rhino "boom" in our game reserves has squat to do with hunting.
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Re: Helicopters and Hunting

Unread post by kudu177 » Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:13 pm

Airwayfreak wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:08 pm
kudu177 wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:03 pm

I'm sorry to burst your bubble but your statement is wrong. The benefits for conservation that comes from hunting is nuanced and complicated. So I will give the most direct example I know.

SA has roughly 22,500 white rhino plus a few thousand black rhino. The white rhino "boom' has been largely driven by trophy hunting.

In the 1960s, Ian Player and his fellow conservationists relocated roughly 1000 white rhino to overseas zoos and game parks elsewhere in Africa.
With respect. I sat on the same board of directors as Dr Ian Player. The white rhino "boom" in our game reserves has squat to do with hunting.
Well, I sat with Ian Player at Phuzamoya on a number of occasions and explored the issue and thus, respectfully, disagree with you.
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Re: Helicopters and Hunting

Unread post by Airwayfreak » Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:21 pm

kudu177 wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:13 pm
Airwayfreak wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:08 pm
kudu177 wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:03 pm

I'm sorry to burst your bubble but your statement is wrong. The benefits for conservation that comes from hunting is nuanced and complicated. So I will give the most direct example I know.

SA has roughly 22,500 white rhino plus a few thousand black rhino. The white rhino "boom' has been largely driven by trophy hunting.

In the 1960s, Ian Player and his fellow conservationists relocated roughly 1000 white rhino to overseas zoos and game parks elsewhere in Africa.
With respect. I sat on the same board of directors as Dr Ian Player. The white rhino "boom" in our game reserves has squat to do with hunting.
Well, I sat with Ian Player at Phuzamoya on a number of occasions and explored the issue and thus, respectfully, disagree with you.
That's fair enough. But the fact remains that the rhino numbers in the Hluhluwe Umfolozi Game Reserve where Player was most active, grew because of breeding projects. I attach an extract from a paper on this. Please explain where hunting was part of this initiative.

I agree that the topic is controversial and I cannot recall the number of times I have had the conversation with hunting concessions and hunting organisations alike. All make the statement that hunting aids conservation but nobody has ever been able to detail exactly where and how

The Hluhluwe Umfolozi Game Reserve (KwaZulu Natal, South Africa)
This game park is the oldest in the country, having been established in 1895. It is home to larger numbers of rhinos than Kruger, and its many lodges offer tourists the opportunity to view such animals in close proximity. Breeding projects were initiated in this park, and have been conducted here for decades. They have proven largely successful in increasing the numbers of precious rhinos that live within its borders. During the 1950’s and 1960’s, this reserve was acclaimed for its rhino breeding initiatives, particularly in terms of the White Rhino. Today, Hluhluwe Umfolozi Game Reserve continues to breed rhino and send them all over the world in attempts to rehabilitate their population numbers.
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Re: Helicopters and Hunting

Unread post by Jack Welles » Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:14 pm

Seems to me that the current debate is getting bogged down in some minutiae about rhinos.

The crisp issue is that when you give something a value people will try to have more of it. That's why there's so many cows in the world. You make wildlife valueless and then most of the game farms will revert to farming cattle or crops (depending on the habitat etc). Automatically there will be less wildlife.

Given that conservation means ensuring the survivability and sustainability of species it's self-evident that more of them means that more of them are likely to survive, ie, to be conserved.

Hunting (and photo safaris etc - each has a role to play - with one complementing the efforts of the other, but hunting is being discussed) gives wildlife a value and thus helps conservation efforts.
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Re: Helicopters and Hunting

Unread post by SlowApproach » Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:08 am

IMO, valuing everything living in mere money terms is an egomaniacal and frankly, incredibly short-sighted and reckless way to view our raison d'être for being on this planet. It actually translates to a pretty fake and deceptively low quality of existence that precludes any real feelings of joy and “inner peace”, amongst other things.

Perhaps this will put another perspective on things. (Who is actually the “superior being” here? Rich twits posing with their kill, or this man, who has absolutely nothing, yet still cares about life?)

richness of soul.jpg
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Re: Helicopters and Hunting

Unread post by Swartbok » Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:43 am

Or.....
Rich twit want clothes, shoes, house, kale, baby spinach, watermelon, superfood, facebook, boat, aeroplane, car etc etc.
All of which require to some degree animals (big, small, and everything in between)to be displaced and/or killed, even if at least just the space for production nevermind poisoned or trapped.
Rich twit then complains about other people posing on photographs with their sport (hunting), while blissfully unaware of his own impact when posting a proud facebook selfie with his own sporting interest, while enjoying that health breakfast at some restaurant at a cycle friendly park. (bicycle tyre rubber comes from somewhere). And shares his views on bad people who don’t care about animals.

With regard to the pic above, you should see to what lengths game farmers go to keep their animals alive and healthy. And yes that sometimes means sacrificing a few for the greater good of many (but that’s not conservation, right?), because, to be honest, a small bottle of milk ain’t gonna go far to keep a heard of wild animals fed or healthy. (By the way, that milk probably comes from a farm space where wild animals no longer thrive).

My point is, the door can swing both ways and generally the game farming/hunting industry makes a bigger impact and contribution to sustain and grow wild animal numbers than someone’s super food or facebook posts do, as was said previously.
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Re: Helicopters and Hunting

Unread post by Swartbok » Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:58 am

I am not a trophy hunter myself, I only shoot it if I’m gonna eat it. Sometimes though I need to change out bloodlines, sometimes I need to keep male/female numbers in balance and sometimes I just need money to keep the operation going, and I’ll gladly shoot a trophy if he needs to be gone, for that meat I’m going to eat, (if it happens to be a trophy, why not take a pic?) and I’ll gladly take 100 pics of that rich hunter next to his Learjet or chopper if that achieves my goals of keeping my eco system healthy and my ability (financial or otherwise) to keep numbers increasing, because they are beautiful animals to behold.
And I’ll thank him for allowing me to continue doing so.
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Re: Helicopters and Hunting

Unread post by C Africa » Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:52 am

SlowApproach wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:08 am
IMO, valuing everything living in mere money terms is an egomaniacal and frankly, incredibly short-sighted and reckless way to view our raison d'être for being on this planet. It actually translates to a pretty fake and deceptively low quality of existence that precludes any real feelings of joy and “inner peace”, amongst other things.
Sorry Slow, but you are missing a big point. The money we are talking about is to keep the game farm operating. Without income, the farm will go bankrupt, and the next farmer may decide that farming with domestic animals or crops is better than farming with game. So unfortunately, the game HAVE TO PAY FOR THEMSELVES, or they will become extinct.

For those who believe that hunting does not contribute to conservation, here are some facts:

In 1954 the Government did a census of game animals in the country and found that the total number in private hands was only about 800 000 animals. At the time the law did not allow a private person to own game, so there were NO HUNTING operators in the country (you cannot sell something that you cannot own). So all game were seen as either crop raiders / competing with domestic stock for grazing / carriers of disease, and were exterminated in large numbers (not by sport hunters mind you, but by farmers (and often government sponsored eradication programmes)).

The law was then changed to allow ownership. The conditions were onerous, you had to fence your property with a game proof fence which was horrendously expensive. Yet a few farmers tried it, found a willing market among hunters and the industry took off. In 2007 another census was conducted and it was found that the total number of game animals had grown to over 18 million, and the total area under private game management was more than 4 times the size of all the national parks put together.

This was all paid for by money from hunting, not by taxpayers or subsidies. In the process many animals which were on the brink of extinction were multiplied into healthy populations. Now tell me again that this does NOT constitute conservation!


C
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Re: Helicopters and Hunting

Unread post by Marius Schrenk » Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:08 pm

Airwayfreak wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:08 pm
kudu177 wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:03 pm

I'm sorry to burst your bubble but your statement is wrong. The benefits for conservation that comes from hunting is nuanced and complicated. So I will give the most direct example I know.

SA has roughly 22,500 white rhino plus a few thousand black rhino. The white rhino "boom' has been largely driven by trophy hunting.

In the 1960s, Ian Player and his fellow conservationists relocated roughly 1000 white rhino to overseas zoos and game parks elsewhere in Africa.
With respect. I sat on the same board of directors as Dr Ian Player. The white rhino "boom" in our game reserves has squat to do with hunting.
So do you know Ron Thomson....and his theories....how do you feel about them??
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Re: Helicopters and Hunting

Unread post by Marius Schrenk » Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:25 pm

SlowApproach wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:08 am
IMO, valuing everything living in mere money terms is an egomaniacal and frankly, incredibly short-sighted and reckless way to view our raison d'être for being on this planet. It actually translates to a pretty fake and deceptively low quality of existence that precludes any real feelings of joy and “inner peace”, amongst other things.

Perhaps this will put another perspective on things. (Who is actually the “superior being” here? Rich twits posing with their kill, or this man, who has absolutely nothing, yet still cares about life?)


richness of soul.jpg
Well then SA I must be on the right tract. I cannot count the number of nights I slept with sick buffalo calves. Neither do I know why I feed away R6000/d of my existence (borrowed) to some random animals which do not love me back. After a lifetime of caring Im still poor (even though I fool most be being a good actor)....and by the way I too have a african wild cat I feed every night (before she share my bed) and a troop of 9 bush babies (custard) :wink: I do wash myself now and then though. :roll:
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Re: Helicopters and Hunting

Unread post by Jack Welles » Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:27 pm

Marius Schrenk wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:08 pm
So do you know Ron Thomson....and his theories....how do you feel about them??
The key question here is does he have a helo pilot's licence? :twisted:
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