Helicopters and Hunting

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Re: Helicopters and Hunting

Unread post by bosvark » Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:56 am

Airwayfreak wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:43 pm
[
Ever wondered what happens to the funds raised by those fake game rangers one sees at shopping malls ?
THAT goes mostly to some brandewyn en coke....... no, bourbon fund. But if a fool wants to support someone's bourbon consumption....

I support a hunting operation by hunting a bokkie for biltong as a bonus to having a few days in the bush. I still need to find a hunting operation who has eradicated all game on the farm in one shortsighted hunting season.
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Re: Helicopters and Hunting

Unread post by C Africa » Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:20 pm

Airwayfreak wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:30 am
Jack Welles wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:24 am

You help to conserve a species by making money from shooting individual animals in order to finance the propogation of more of the species. The greater good and all of that ...
Not when 100% of the animals bred to be hunted are ultimately hunted. If, say, the hunting farms donate 10 zebra to a conservancy for every 100 bred for hunting or for every R 100 000 paid to hunting concessions by hunters, R 10 000 is paid to a conservation organisation, your argument may have merit, but we know this does not happen.

We should just agree that hunting and conservation are two totally separate endeavours.
Somewhere you seem to have lost the plot completely. Most nature reserves actually have a major problem controlling the numbers of their animals, they certainly don't want more to be donated to them by some-one else. Take elephant in the Kruger. They have way too many. their failure to control the numbers are heading us into dangerous territory (where the ecology will be permanently damaged by over grazing).

Even those so-called "eco Lodges", rely on the hunting market. They will primly tell you that they don't allow hunting on their property because they don't believe in killing. Then when you probe a little, you find the way they control their game numbers is to have capture operations every few years, when they then sell the live animals. Surprise surprise, who buys those animals? The hunting farms!!!! This is SOOOO hypocritical. So its better to subject the animal to the incredible stress of being captured and transported, only then to be hunted, than just hunting the animal? Wow!!!!

You also keep referring to the fact that hunters 'like to kill" or "enjoy killing". Clearly you fail to understand hunting. The joy does not come from the killing part of the activity!


C
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Re: Helicopters and Hunting

Unread post by Jack Welles » Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:38 pm

Airwayfreak wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:30 am
Not when 100% of the animals bred to be hunted are ultimately hunted. We should just agree that hunting and conservation are two totally separate endeavours.
Perhaps we should ask the hunting game farmers on this forum what they do as opposed to someone outside the industry telling them what they do?

I know of two: Marius and Swartbok (maybe there are others?). So guys do you have hunted 100% of the animals that you're breeding or do you have breeding stock that you don't hunt in order to ensure a continuation of supply? (which sounds an awful lot like the sustainibility of species, ie, conservation, to me, although I am neither a farmer nor a hunter)

And then perhaps we should just agree that hunting is actually very good for conservation ...
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Re: Helicopters and Hunting

Unread post by Airwayfreak » Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:02 pm

C Africa wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:20 pm

You also keep referring to the fact that hunters 'like to kill" or "enjoy killing". Clearly you fail to understand hunting. The joy does not come from the killing part of the activity!

C
Not quite sure where you sucked this from, but I have not said anything of the sort.
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Re: Helicopters and Hunting

Unread post by Airwayfreak » Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:11 pm

bosvark wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:56 am

I support a hunting operation by hunting a bokkie for biltong as a bonus to having a few days in the bush. I still need to find a hunting operation who has eradicated all game on the farm in one shortsighted hunting season.
Not arguing that either. But ultimately the entire population on the farm will succumb to being shot eventually.

The hunting fraternity does not have to justify its existence nor does it have to prove that it supports conservation. This argument has crept in because the bunny-huggers want to demonise hunting and the hunting fraternity have responded by trying to prove that hunting supports conservation when it doesn't. Why not just let hunters do their thing instead of trying to link the two.
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Re: Helicopters and Hunting

Unread post by Airwayfreak » Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:17 pm

Jack Welles wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:38 pm
Airwayfreak wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:30 am
Not when 100% of the animals bred to be hunted are ultimately hunted. We should just agree that hunting and conservation are two totally separate endeavours.
Perhaps we should ask the hunting game farmers on this forum what they do as opposed to someone outside the industry telling them what they do?

I know of two: Marius and Swartbok (maybe there are others?). So guys do you have hunted 100% of the animals that you're breeding or do you have breeding stock that you don't hunt in order to ensure a continuation of supply? (which sounds an awful lot like the sustainibility of species, ie, conservation, to me, although I am neither a farmer nor a hunter)

And then perhaps we should just agree that hunting is actually very good for conservation ...
And this is the gist of the discussion. Hunting farms breed animals for hunting, nothing else. And there is nothing wrong with that. Just like we breed sheep and cows for human consumption. It will be foolhardy to slaughter every single animal and not have anything left to continue breeding. But this is not conservation.
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Re: Helicopters and Hunting

Unread post by Fransw » Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:23 pm

At the end of the day its up to the farmer imo. I have seen cattle farmers that are doing more for conservation than the neighbour game farms and vice versa.

A game farmer doesn't automatically qualify as a conservationist.. :wink:
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Re: Helicopters and Hunting

Unread post by Jack Welles » Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:48 pm

Airwayfreak wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:17 pm
It will be foolhardy to slaughter every single animal and not have anything left to continue breeding. But this is not conservation.
This is good because, without the debate having become too personalized, all the exchanges are identifying the true difference of opinion.

The difference now seems to lie in the definition of conservation. Nothing more and nothing less.

Would it be fair to say that I've correctly understood your view, as expressed above, which is that even though the hunting game farmers are breeding more of the species that they hunt, or will have others hunt, and don't actually slaughter all of their game that that perpetuation of the species doesn't constitute conservation?
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Re: Helicopters and Hunting

Unread post by Airwayfreak » Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:43 pm

Jack Welles wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:48 pm

The difference now seems to lie in the definition of conservation. Nothing more and nothing less.

Would it be fair to say that I've correctly understood your view, as expressed above, which is that even though the hunting game farmers are breeding more of the species that they hunt, or will have others hunt, and don't actually slaughter all of their game that that perpetuation of the species doesn't constitute conservation?
Correct. The perpetuation of species for hunting purposes solely is not conservation in the context of conservation. It is simply ensuring the sustainability of an industry. The bunny huggers will call it exploitation but this is where I begin to differ. Hunting and conservation are not opposite extremes of the wildlife industry. Some think that they are and of course there are positive spin-offs for each other, but my argument has always been that the hunting fraternity does not support conservation agencies/efforts/initiatives directly. Hunting is a self-contained, sustainable industry that provides for itself. Again, there is nothing wrong with this if you choose to not be a bunny-hugger
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Re: Helicopters and Hunting

Unread post by Sunbird » Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:53 pm

The biggest thread to wildlife is habitat loss.
Conservation is a decision that has to be made.
Legislation is what would enable a person to make that decision.
Conservation is rarely made on economic grounds, big national parks could often only be afforded by government. Such land could often (not always) be many folds more financially productively used for eg farms.
In countries where individual ownership of land is not embraced, habitat loss is most severe because of relentless population growth and lack of incentives. I see this failing even in Namibia"s famed Community based Conservancies.
Setting land aside for wildlife is conservation.
Kudus to the hunting farms (pun intended).
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Re: Helicopters and Hunting

Unread post by Marius Schrenk » Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:39 pm

Airwayfreak wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:17 pm
Jack Welles wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:38 pm
Airwayfreak wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:30 am
Not when 100% of the animals bred to be hunted are ultimately hunted. We should just agree that hunting and conservation are two totally separate endeavours.
Perhaps we should ask the hunting game farmers on this forum what they do as opposed to someone outside the industry telling them what they do?

I know of two: Marius and Swartbok (maybe there are others?). So guys do you have hunted 100% of the animals that you're breeding or do you have breeding stock that you don't hunt in order to ensure a continuation of supply? (which sounds an awful lot like the sustainibility of species, ie, conservation, to me, although I am neither a farmer nor a hunter)

And then perhaps we should just agree that hunting is actually very good for conservation ...
And this is the gist of the discussion. Hunting farms breed animals for hunting, nothing else. And there is nothing wrong with that. Just like we breed sheep and cows for human consumption. It will be foolhardy to slaughter every single animal and not have anything left to continue breeding. But this is not conservation.
You still have not answered my question of way back. WHAT DO YOU SUGGEST SHOULD HAPPEN TO THE 30% INCREASE IN NUMBERS EVERY YEAR ??? Should they die of malnutrition due to overgrazing ? and HOW DO YOU SUGGEST SHOULD THE OPERATION BE SUSTAINABLY FINANCED ??. How many game farms do you expect would be left if they do not make money ? Tell us how you suggest we should finance "conservation". Timbavati is a lekker example. They hunt the Kruger's overflow....in exchange of grazing and a outsourced Western and Southern game fence.
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Re: Helicopters and Hunting

Unread post by Marius Schrenk » Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:12 pm

Jack Welles wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:38 pm
Airwayfreak wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:30 am
Not when 100% of the animals bred to be hunted are ultimately hunted. We should just agree that hunting and conservation are two totally separate endeavours.
Perhaps we should ask the hunting game farmers on this forum what they do as opposed to someone outside the industry telling them what they do?

I know of two: Marius and Swartbok (maybe there are others?). So guys do you have hunted 100% of the animals that you're breeding or do you have breeding stock that you don't hunt in order to ensure a continuation of supply? (which sounds an awful lot like the sustainibility of species, ie, conservation, to me, although I am neither a farmer nor a hunter)

And then perhaps we should just agree that hunting is actually very good for conservation ...
On our farm Kudu cows calve in May. (do not ask me why,they are suppose to be breeding then with a calve 7 months later) So there you are smack in the middle of winter they suckle calves and become thin.Thus for 15 years we have not hunted one kudu cow. The leopard however are not that fussy.We hunt about 25 % of the male animals each year. Kudu/Buffalo/Waterbuck takes 7 + years before they have trophy horns...no use to hunt them earlier.(but we happily host them....at our own cost. :roll: We have not hunted one Klipspringer/Steenbuck/Mountain Reedbuck/Leopard/Guinea Fowl/Partridge/Sandgrows in 15 years. Up to now we have not hunted one buffalo cow either. This coming year we might have to. All living creatures on earth die in the end. We can get emotional about it or we can accept it as n fact....it would not change a thing.In 1998 there were few "clean" buffalo in the country. I guess in the region of 2000. All Addo inbred. Clean buffalo breeding from F&M mothers was then allowed for 10 years. During that 10 years I sold 300+ heifers into a hungry market. Today there are 60 000 plus. If that is not "conservation" you tell me what is. (all privately financed) Game farms used to struggle to find bulk grazer (to replace cattle) to manage their grazing. That has now been solved. May we call that a "conservation" breakthrough ...or is it just all greed/blood and guts ?? In the bushveld we have heavy bush encroachment.(due to unsustainable cattle farming.....and "global warming" :roll: ) Farmers spend upwards of R1000/ha yearly to push that back to recreate the original savanna...and better grazing. Would that be "conservation"? and how should it be financed ?
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Re: Helicopters and Hunting

Unread post by Swartbok » Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:19 pm

In my opinion, I agree with Sunbird, the biggest threat is habitat loss.

So the way I see it and do it (to answer your question from above Jack), I have bought space, a piece of land that I stretched to afford, no where even close to Marius scale of operation, to allow space for wildlife and enjoy it. It cost me lots of money to convert that cattle farm to a game farm, it’s still on going for various reasons as Marius mentioned, bush recovery, establishing wild life etc.

So I’m still in the building process, therefore I have only allowed myself to hunt and some of my closest friends.
All animals hunted were specifically targeted for a specific reason, as Marius mentioned there are lots of reasons why some animals need to be hunted.

In my case it was specifically to keep the system and herds in balance, and it would only be an animal or 3, once I had a bigger group darted and sold. It’s not financially viable to dart 1 or 2 animals (depending on species).

Therefore I have only supplied limited hunting animals so far as my main goal is still to increase numbers (my farm is very under utilized.

A lot of these plans have come to a halt due to many reasons, I moved abroad, my wife refuses to stay on the farm for security reasons and EWC also plays a role.

So for now I only use some spare savings occasionally to buy small heards of inexpensive game, and still only allow hunting (myself) or sale to improve the balance of the whole farm system.

And I envisage in future to continue hunting or sale for that purpose only.

The proceeds help offset the cost which is mainly borne by myself, and all of it goes to improving the farm and increasing numbers.
When it eventually gets there I’ll still have to sell or hunt because my land only has so much carrying capacity (so in a way, keeping the eco system in balance).

I don’t hunt something I don’t eat, but if a hunter is prepared to pay me good money for that older Giraffe and I have 2 younger upcoming males to take over, I would let him, and take the money to continue improving the bigger picture.

Edit: I also have 2 camps where I breed some higher value game, in the hope of selling for money to further develop the whole rest of the farm. (not develope as in building)
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Re: Helicopters and Hunting

Unread post by Swartbok » Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:13 pm

I am now doing it more half heartedly and not expanding as much as I use to because I moved abroad (reasons I’ve given on other threads) and I’m a lot more averse to adding much more of my own money, but luckily I have another proffesion, if I was full time farming I would need much more animal sales to keep paying the bills and allow the farm to live, or maybe it’s time to just give it away for free.
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Re: Helicopters and Hunting

Unread post by Airwayfreak » Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:35 am

Marius Schrenk wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:39 pm
Timbavati is a lekker example. They hunt the Kruger's overflow....in exchange of grazing and a outsourced Western and Southern game fence.
:lol: :lol: :lol: So you reckon the fences came down between Kruger and Timbavati/Klaserie to exchange hunting for grazing?

But to answer your question as you insist. Culling is, of course, the obvious answer and this happens all the time. So I'm not sure why you ask the question. Culling is not a hunting operation but is a direct intervention for conservation purposes, so that question is moot and has nothing to do with the debate about hunting supporting conservation efforts

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