Self defense poll

Aviation Trivia, Jokes & Humour

Moderator: Moderators

Self defense weapons

Poll ended at Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:42 pm

Do you own a self defense firearm
82
31%
Dont own a self defense firearm
54
20%
Do you always carry
22
8%
Do you occasionally carry
46
17%
Do you never carry
24
9%
Do you carry something other than firearm ( tazer/ pepper spray)
40
15%
 
Total votes: 268
User avatar
cage
10000 and still climbing
10000 and still climbing
Posts: 10214
Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2013 9:47 am
Closest Airfield: FAGC
Location: ..for the grass 35
Has liked: 16 times
Been liked: 372 times

Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by cage » Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:22 pm

snoopy wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:20 pm
You can't save the dead - you can only protect and save the living (life).
Which is the point of regulation.
You're erecting straw men thick and fast.
People will find a way to kill each other, you can just choose how great an ability you will give them.
With some work, if it was all that was available, man would turn a pool noodle into a weapon, they just wouldn't be able to do much with it.

It would need a warped sense of reality to believe swapping everyone's knives for guns will reduce the number of deaths - there isn't a single piece of research (nor logic) that will support the view that gun-free nations are more dangerous, or more people will die than ones where firearms are prolific.
Your argument has long since run out of steam.

The view that having a weapon for self-defence somehow magically keeps the predators away makes little sense.
Of course some people will get to use it in that manner, successfully, but the majority will never use one in anger.
There are armed police that won't get to fire a shot in the line of duty.
Let's think of all those mass shootings that were stopped by people carrying? Keep thinking.
Of course the answer is more guns..

All flooding the (legal) market with weapons achieves, is to provide the opportunity to put more weapons in the hands of bad guys.
And that is how the cycle starts.

If your viewpoint was applied to the UK market, we would be discussing almost 4000 deaths a year, not 285.
Thankfully London is an order of magnitude safer than any of the cities you could raise as prime examples of gun ownership, knives or not.
User avatar
snoopy
1k poster
1k poster
Posts: 1148
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:02 pm
Closest Airfield: FASH
Has liked: 166 times
Been liked: 222 times

Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by snoopy » Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:55 pm

Aai
Let's think of all those mass shootings that were stopped by people carrying? Keep thinking.
https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/08/ ... o-can-you/

https://www.washingtontimes.com/multime ... d-guy-gun/
People will find a way to kill each other, .....With some work, if it was all that was available, man would turn a pool noodle into a weapon, they just wouldn't be able to do much with it.
At least we agree on that - so why fixate on legal firearms obtained for self defense ?
All flooding the (legal) market with weapons achieves, is to provide the opportunity to put more weapons in the hands of bad guys.
And that is how the cycle starts.
- you have a sh*t load of things you need to ban from legal ownership if you believe that. Get on with it, if you really believe THAT will change the underlying cause of homicide. Ever heard of RCA? Probably not.
There are armed police that won't get to fire a shot in the line of duty.
And there are armed police that will - whats the point here?


And lets not forget all the times in SA when a good guy with a legal gun takes down human predators to save a family under attack. It happens, as much as you want to deny it.

But legal gun owners whom have had to use lethal force to save lives dont generally brag about it to the media. So dont expect to find all those instances on social media or main stream media. Legal gun owners dont go out there to look for people to kill. Using one in defence is not the same as using one in anger.

Gun ownership should remain a free choice. Free of political interference as it is after all about defending the right to life, and the right not to be tortured in any way by anyone - at least legal gun owners are not as fixated on non gun owners as the irrational reverse is true.

Straw man arguments

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
Vivere come se mai dovessimo morire
User avatar
cage
10000 and still climbing
10000 and still climbing
Posts: 10214
Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2013 9:47 am
Closest Airfield: FAGC
Location: ..for the grass 35
Has liked: 16 times
Been liked: 372 times

Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by cage » Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:04 pm

snoopy wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:55 pm
.. so why fixate on legal firearms obtained for self defense ?

.. you have a sh*t load of things you need to ban from legal ownership if you believe that. Get on with it...


And lets not forget all the times in SA when a good guy with a legal gun takes down human predators to save a family under attack. It happens, as much as you want to deny it...
<Edited for brevity>
Who has said anything about banning? That's the usual deflection argument that comes up the moment anyone says the status quo is wrong and needs changing. The discussion was about gun-free nations being safer than those that aren't, there has been loads of fancy footwork to try dance around that topic.

I don't buy the perception that legal firearms for self-defence keep the predators at bay. I call bull on that, I am certainly not denying they are used for that purpose (already stated), I just question the benefit, and in the case of the US the justification for weapons of war for "self-defence".

When it comes down to it, maybe, 1 in a (I will be generous) 1000 are ever used for self-defence. Most just are locked away (or not) or are of little value if the time came. Of the remaining 1000 some will end up in the wrong hands (shirt happens) and some will be used irresponsibly. Ultimately the cost to society outweighs the benefit.

If every gun in the US turned into a knife, sure there would be crime, and death. There would just be a lot more people that lived through the year.
If Nikolas Cruz walked into that school with a bag of knives, how long do you think it would have taken to put an end to his rampage and how many would still be alive?

Responsible societies put an end to stuff like that, like New Zealand did, and hopefully more follow.
User avatar
snoopy
1k poster
1k poster
Posts: 1148
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:02 pm
Closest Airfield: FASH
Has liked: 166 times
Been liked: 222 times

Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by snoopy » Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:49 am

The regulations in the USA and New Zealand - were far too slack - about that I agree. You could buy a firearm via mail order, and never even show up in person at their police stations to license a gun in New Zealand.

So yes there is space in some countries for reform in law. NZ has tightened their laws, and the USA is about to do the same.

But lets get back to RSA - The one good thing that came out of the new law, is the vetting, and the requirement for a competency and proficiency before you may own a firearm. With only 9 civilian firearms per 100 of the population, the anti gun political lobby against legal firearm ownership is a storm in a tea cup in SA, and its funded/sponsored by foreign nationals. In my opinion its anti Constitutional and there are a number of Acts that protect minority groups and equity that can be thrown at that lobby group in legal action. You see, legal gun owners are also citizens with Constitutional rights.

The right to self defence is protected in SA, the right to life and not to be tortured is also - for citizens to choose a tool for self defence, and legally own it should not be interfered with, by political lobby groups - which all have their own motives. Once you are deemed fit by the state to own a firearm legally - the legal asset is protected as private property under the SA Constitution. All of this I've mentioned before.

In SA there is space for more improvement in getting rid of ambiguity in the legislation, and ridding it of the parts that have proven over 18 years to be ineffective and not manageable. The political capture of the police system also needs to be dealt with, and that is a priority - There are police employees that are part of the organized crime situation in SA, and they are part of the illegal gun challenge RSA has. So yes there is space for reform in SA as well.

Anyway - I have stated what I believe is reasonable, and not everyone is going to agree with my opinion - and I'm ok with that, just like I am ok with it that many people choose not to own firearms. Its their right to associate with what they want to, provided it doesn't encroach on the freedom to rights and equality of other groups. Also a Constitutional right in RSA, which we cannot just walk over in this context .

Its fine if you associate with legal gun ownership - its fine if you dont. There's no reason to fixate on what what other people dont want to associate with. I dont associate with irresponsible gun ownership, and nobody that I know - who owns a firearm legally in SA - does either.

I dont believe banning legal civilian firearms, where there is reasonable regulation in place is the answer to the REAL problem.
The discussion was about gun-free nations being safer than those that aren't
These are the no-issue states of the world....where civilians may not own firearms legally.

The countries where ONLY the state owns guns (interesting that) - there is no such thing as a gun-free nation anywhere in the world. I suppose one could always opt to emigrate to any of these if legal guns in civilian hands are REALLY the issue, at least in these countries you wont ever get murdered by a citizen who owns a gun legally, but you may be murdered by other means, or you may get shot by the state - if thats what you mean by feeling safer or being safer - so be it.

Cambodia
East Timor
Eritrea
Fiji
Marshall Islands
Nauru
North Korea
Palau
Solomon Islands

Singapore has a murder rate of 0.32 per 100 000 people , one of the lowest murder rates in the world , Japan's murder rate is 0.28 per 100 000 of the population also, the 7th lowest murder rate in the world - both nations - ALLOW legal civilian gun ownership.

Japan is only trumped by Isle Of Man,San Marino,Nauru,Monaco,Liechtenstein and Andorra which have lower murder rates. Source : UN International Homicide Statistics database.

Legal civilian guns are NOT the problem.
Vivere come se mai dovessimo morire
User avatar
Fransw
Fife Thousand feet
Fife Thousand feet
Posts: 5808
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2015 3:22 pm
Closest Airfield: Pretoria
Location: Pretoria
Has liked: 440 times
Been liked: 177 times

Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by Fransw » Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:03 am

Civilian gun ownership in the world. Its an old graph but ± the same today..

I didn't know the Arabs are gun crazy..
GunsQ.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Davidc
Taxiing to Threshold
Posts: 458
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 8:10 am
Closest Airfield: BLOEMFONTEIN
Location: BLOEMFONTEIN
Has liked: 5 times
Been liked: 27 times

Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by Davidc » Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:42 pm

Media Hype Questionable Gun Control Study

https://youtu.be/lXGgI2E5JUw
User avatar
snoopy
1k poster
1k poster
Posts: 1148
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:02 pm
Closest Airfield: FASH
Has liked: 166 times
Been liked: 222 times

Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by snoopy » Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:15 am

I'm pretty sure there are about 400 million legal firearms in the USA that didn't commit a mass shooting yesterday...hard pill to swallow, but true. :idea:
Vivere come se mai dovessimo morire
User avatar
spatz
Airborne from Unmanned field
Posts: 515
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2008 4:11 pm
Closest Airfield: Plaistows + Bovingdon
Location: Hemel Hempstead . Just south of EGGW
Has liked: 30 times
Been liked: 10 times

Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by spatz » Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:01 pm

snoopy wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:59 pm
And when the proverbial sh*t hits the fan in the UK - the police still defend their own lives with self defense firearms....Get the point yet?

And they dont carry 5 shot revolvers and just one bullet. And those who respond to such incidents, carry more than one firearm per person. Guess why?

Image

Because it remains the most effective defensive tool in the world. And its benefits still outweigh the negatives. The device in the right hands can save the lives of good people, facing deadly predators with murderous intent in the moment.

Modern society is being brain f*cked by popularist narratives (each with their own motive) in this regard, and its going to do society no good. The irrational fear of legal civilian firearm owners and legal firearms is just one such result.

Consider - in SA no police officer requires ANY license to carry an assault rifle in public (on or off duty) and use it as they deem fit to. Why not fear that if you fear legal civilian gun owners with NO criminal record?
See the bold bit , in the UK Guns are banned , you turn up with one and those gentlepersons are going to retire you immediately if you dont do exactly what they say. Now take a crowd of people all with guns, how exactly do they target their efforts shoot everyone (all potential threats, sort out apologise for the mistakes afterwards )
Sadly you come across as a victim with a victim mentality and as such defend any position that precludes any other answer but the one you have espoused.
Keven Gaffney
Never let an aircraft take you somewhere your brain didn't get to five minutes earlier.
User avatar
Marius Schrenk
10000 and still climbing
10000 and still climbing
Posts: 10278
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:34 pm
Closest Airfield: 300m from home
Location: Inni skadu van n kameeldoringboom.
Has liked: 290 times
Been liked: 258 times

Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by Marius Schrenk » Thu Sep 05, 2019 4:47 pm

spatz wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:01 pm
snoopy wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:59 pm
And when the proverbial sh*t hits the fan in the UK - the police still defend their own lives with self defense firearms....Get the point yet?

And they dont carry 5 shot revolvers and just one bullet. And those who respond to such incidents, carry more than one firearm per person. Guess why?

Image

Because it remains the most effective defensive tool in the world. And its benefits still outweigh the negatives. The device in the right hands can save the lives of good people, facing deadly predators with murderous intent in the moment.

Modern society is being brain f*cked by popularist narratives (each with their own motive) in this regard, and its going to do society no good. The irrational fear of legal civilian firearm owners and legal firearms is just one such result.

Consider - in SA no police officer requires ANY license to carry an assault rifle in public (on or off duty) and use it as they deem fit to. Why not fear that if you fear legal civilian gun owners with NO criminal record?
See the bold bit , in the UK Guns are banned , you turn up with one and those gentlepersons are going to retire you immediately if you dont do exactly what they say. Now take a crowd of people all with guns, how exactly do they target their efforts shoot everyone (all potential threats, sort out apologise for the mistakes afterwards )
Sadly you come across as a victim with a victim mentality and as such defend any position that precludes any other answer but the one you have espoused.
Humm so what are you going to do if your Govmint turns rogue ? How many examples should I quote ? Zim at the moment good enough for you ??
Politics attracts crooks and lawyers,most of the time its the same person.
User avatar
SNIPER
Tree Tousand
Tree Tousand
Posts: 3107
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:15 am
Location: Bloemfontein
Has liked: 698 times
Been liked: 215 times

Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by SNIPER » Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:16 pm

.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Si vis pacem para bellum
All it takes for evil to prevail is that good men do nothing.
User avatar
Fransw
Fife Thousand feet
Fife Thousand feet
Posts: 5808
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2015 3:22 pm
Closest Airfield: Pretoria
Location: Pretoria
Has liked: 440 times
Been liked: 177 times

Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by Fransw » Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:26 pm

Good grief!! :shock:

1900 mass shootings in 5 years in the US. 80 000 killed ..
chartoftheday_18909_figures_related_to_gun_violence_in_the_us_n.jpg
images-22.jpeg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
User avatar
SlowApproach
Too Tousand
Too Tousand
Posts: 2945
Joined: Fri May 07, 2010 11:01 pm
Closest Airfield: FAGC
Location: Arse-end of Centurion
Has liked: 22 times
Been liked: 134 times

Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by SlowApproach » Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:32 pm

What these "shocking" stats conveniently omit is the fact that the USA has a population of around 329 million!

Now do the math...
Behind every angry woman is a man who has absolutely no idea what he did wrong.
User avatar
Marius Schrenk
10000 and still climbing
10000 and still climbing
Posts: 10278
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:34 pm
Closest Airfield: 300m from home
Location: Inni skadu van n kameeldoringboom.
Has liked: 290 times
Been liked: 258 times

Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by Marius Schrenk » Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:51 pm

Yes then compare it to the Cape flats. :shock:
Politics attracts crooks and lawyers,most of the time its the same person.
User avatar
SlowApproach
Too Tousand
Too Tousand
Posts: 2945
Joined: Fri May 07, 2010 11:01 pm
Closest Airfield: FAGC
Location: Arse-end of Centurion
Has liked: 22 times
Been liked: 134 times

Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by SlowApproach » Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:59 pm

Seriously, guns in the hands of legal gun owners are the least of our problems, as can be shown what happened just today:
14-year-old stabs fellow pupil to death over cellphone at Joburg school
2019-09-10 20:17

A grade 9 pupil stabbed and killed a grade 10 pupil to death after the two got into a fight over a cellphone at Tokelo Secondary School in Evaton, east of Johannesburg, the Gauteng education department said on Tuesday.

It is alleged that the two boys, aged 17 and 14, were fighting over a cellphone which resulted in one of them pulling out a knife and stabbing the other in the chest.
People should stop obsessing about guns and worry more about situations where 14 year olds turn into killers with knives.
Behind every angry woman is a man who has absolutely no idea what he did wrong.
User avatar
SNIPER
Tree Tousand
Tree Tousand
Posts: 3107
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:15 am
Location: Bloemfontein
Has liked: 698 times
Been liked: 215 times

Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by SNIPER » Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:54 pm

Si vis pacem para bellum
All it takes for evil to prevail is that good men do nothing.

Return to “123.45”