Self defense poll

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Self defense weapons

Poll ended at Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:42 pm

Do you own a self defense firearm
82
31%
Dont own a self defense firearm
54
20%
Do you always carry
22
8%
Do you occasionally carry
46
17%
Do you never carry
24
9%
Do you carry something other than firearm ( tazer/ pepper spray)
40
15%
 
Total votes: 268
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Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by cage » Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:51 pm

Some additional food for (wiki) thought:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_fi ... by_country

Gives an idea how seldom shots are actually fired by police - apart from the U.S of Aaaay of course.
(and also which forces aren't armed by default)
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Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by snoopy » Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:55 pm

What is true of all legal firearm owners in SA is that more rounds are discharged in training - than for defensive moments which merit the same to save a life. Ample data available in SA about civilians and police officers whom have used their legal firearms defensively and successfully, as a last resort. Also data available about how many mass killings there are every month in SA. Usually not by use of a firearm.
This applies to civilians, and police.

The fear of legal gun owners is irrational.

If you want to go after illegal firearms - I'm with you all the way. Right behind you - you can take the lead with your man-bag. :twisted:
Last edited by snoopy on Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:02 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by Davidc » Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:00 pm

cage wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:37 pm
Davidc wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:34 pm
Granted it’s lower than here but it’s on the increase.
https://www.google.co.za/amp/s/amp.theg ... n-a-decade
indeed, but that is off a very low base.
a small increase on a large number is way more painful than a big increase on a small one.

The difference here is the Brits will do something about it - historically they have been able to get rates down, but that is pre-austerity - and not just hope that it gets better.
When they eventually stop arguing about Brexit that is :D
I somehow doubt that if we removed guns from our society there would be a dramatic decrease in the murder and or crime rate. GFSA had a lot to say about the decrease in gun related deaths since the implementation of the FCA some 10 years ago yet they refuse to acknowledge or even debate the increase in knife related deaths.
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Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by excolonial » Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:01 pm

cage wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:08 pm

Some are just bad apples and you will never engineer that out of society.
There always have been, and always will be criminals and nutters.
You will never stop that, all you can do is limit the ability to do harm.
I don't think your argument here is supported by facts. It is evident that when existing laws are applied effectively, and policing is unhindered by political deviance, then it is actually possible to control the bad apples in our society quite effectively. A simple case in point is New York under Giuliani and Bratton(?). Then of course my old favourite - Singapore, a gang infested swamp that was brought swiftly to order by a change of mindset, and the ruthless application of the law.

In my opinion it is simply apparent impunity behind the recent upsurge of violent crime regardless of the country, stoked all too often by desensitised drug (prescription) addled youngsters raised to believe that they have more rights than responsibilities. The media and entertainment industries glorify violence, all the while offering excuses for it.

So, no, I don't agree that it can't be fixed, but it may well be that there is no will to fix it, or that where there is a societal will it will be subverted by the aforementioned ideological and political deviance. RSA the former, USA the latter.
The older I get, the more I am convinced that "A Confederacy of Dunces" is non fiction.
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Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by cage » Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:08 pm

excolonial wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:01 pm
So, no, I don't agree that it can't be fixed, but it may well be that there is no will to fix it, or that where there is a societal will it will be subverted by the aforementioned ideological and political deviance. RSA the former, USA the latter.
The system relies on politicians and money to work.
When the former are useless and the latter runs out (austerity etc), you are left with an under-equipped, understaffed and underfunded force.
In the UK this is one of their biggest issues.
Add additional bureaucracy and pretty soon you have a dysfunctional system where crime can survive and grow.

It is a complex problem.
Theorising about what could happen in an ideal world isn't going to change the outcome.
It's like expecting people to become less flawed and smarter.
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Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by cage » Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:11 pm

Davidc wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:00 pm
I somehow doubt that if we removed guns from our society there would be a dramatic decrease in the murder and or crime rate. GFSA had a lot to say about the decrease in gun related deaths since the implementation of the FCA some 10 years ago yet they refuse to acknowledge or even debate the increase in knife related deaths.
Well, crime will always exist, like the UK shows with knife crime.
You'd need some proper stats to work out what lives were or weren't saved.
I do know this though, it is a damn side harder to do a cash-in-transit heist with a switchblade.
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Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by snoopy » Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:12 pm

Guys and girls - you'll be far better off on focusing on SA, and how things are here -than trying to fix whats going on in Kakzakisthan or the USA, or the indecisive people on that potato island.

You're not going to solve the USA's problem on a 100 pages of opinion on this forum. :arrow:
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Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by cage » Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:17 pm

snoopy wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:12 pm
Guys and girls - you'll be far better off on focusing on SA, and how things are here -than trying to fix whats going on in Kakzakisthan or the USA, or the indecisive people on that potato island.
Perhaps, but there is a lot of opportunity to learn from other places, or to at least strive to drag ourselves out of the mire and towards something a bit more first world.
For any nation, if you can address some of the socio-economic disparates then you may get somewhere.
That, of course, is very difficult to do so the solution is usually tax and regulate.

People aren't getting any smarter either, and that isn't going to improve anything.
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Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by snoopy » Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:20 pm

People aren't getting any smarter either, and that isn't going to improve anything.
Maybe the answer is in regulating clubs, and arrows pro-actively then - cave man precautions.

Face it - the problem is not the tool - the human factor is what needs addressing - as inconvenient as it is - and part of that is that violence in general is becoming acceptable in society - while defending life and family is not. The shift will cost society...

I will always be pro self defense. Other people will not be. The personal choice to fawn is just that.
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Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by Induna » Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:25 pm

snoopy wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:20 pm

I will always be pro self defense. Other people will not be.
+1

See, i am not a big guy, so cannot necessarily take some motivated big criminal on that has a knife, but i can confidently and safely handle a firearm, if the need arises. (And yes, I practice regularly)

So at least i would have a “fair” chance of surviving.

Some people, like me, go to great lengths to keep the criminal out, but when he crossed 5 barriers at my house (perimeter fence, dogs, perimeter beams, burglar bars, window/door) then he was very determined, and if he is armed with a deadly weapon, be it a knife or gun, then he deserves to be shot/stop
Last edited by Induna on Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by excolonial » Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:33 pm

cage wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:08 pm
excolonial wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:01 pm
So, no, I don't agree that it can't be fixed, but it may well be that there is no will to fix it, or that where there is a societal will it will be subverted by the aforementioned ideological and political deviance. RSA the former, USA the latter.
The system relies on politicians and money to work.
When the former are useless and the latter runs out (austerity etc), you are left with an under-equipped, understaffed and underfunded force.
In the UK this is one of their biggest issues.
Add additional bureaucracy and pretty soon you have a dysfunctional system where crime can survive and grow.

It is a complex problem.
Theorising about what could happen in an ideal world isn't going to change the outcome.
It's like expecting people to become less flawed and smarter.
Agreed about some of the systemic forces, again I believe a fairly easy fix - particularly here in the UK. I do not think we want or require an ideal world, on the contrary, we have to plan more openly for the current dysfunction, and remove the clowns that are intent on enforcing ideology over reality. A simple example of the madness we are forced to live with as a result of the ideological demagoguery of recent decades - a mother and son were stalked around the Tate modern gallery, until the "poor misunderstood soul" who was out on walkies picked this poor child up and simply tossed him off the fourth floor, all the while blaming others for allowing him to do it.

The whole cycle of madness is a very accurate reflection of the state of modern society, and the massive reality gap between the ideologues and the victims of their failed philosophy.
The older I get, the more I am convinced that "A Confederacy of Dunces" is non fiction.
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Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by Davidc » Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:34 pm

cage wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:11 pm
Davidc wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:00 pm
I somehow doubt that if we removed guns from our society there would be a dramatic decrease in the murder and or crime rate. GFSA had a lot to say about the decrease in gun related deaths since the implementation of the FCA some 10 years ago yet they refuse to acknowledge or even debate the increase in knife related deaths.
Well, crime will always exist, like the UK shows with knife crime.
You'd need some proper stats to work out what lives were or weren't saved.
I do know this though, it is a damn side harder to do a cash-in-transit heist with a switchblade.
But if you look at the firearms and tactics employed in cash in transit heists the majority of weapons were either SAPS or old ANC arms caches and their training is definitely not civilian in most cases.
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Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by snoopy » Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:40 pm


So at least i would have a “fair” chance of surviving.

Some people, like me, go to great lengths to keep the criminal out, but when he crossed 5 barriers at my house (perimeter fence, dogs, perimeter beams, burglar bars, window/door) then he was very determined, and if he is armed with a deadly weapon, be it a knife or gun, then he deserves to be shot/stop
In the final analysis self defence is about - a last option. Having no other option. Many people who know how to use firearms will rather have one, than not ...

As the latest SAPS crime stats prove again - SA is not for the faint hearted, and no its not because of how many legal guns there are in SA - dont mess with people's right to self defense. Or the legal tools they choose to use for that. They have the right to life. What anyone chooses to do about their right to life is their personal affair...not a place for politics, political lobbying, or political debate.

This is SA, not the potato island, not NZ and not the USA either.

I'm glad to report again that in SA no legal gun conspired to a mass murder in SA over the past week, and no legal gun jumped up to commit a mass killing in SA either.
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Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by Induna » Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:54 pm

Davidc wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:34 pm

I somehow doubt that if we removed guns from our society there would be a dramatic decrease in the murder and or crime rate. GFSA had a lot to say about the decrease in gun related deaths since the implementation of the FCA some 10 years ago yet they refuse to acknowledge or even debate the increase in knife related deaths.
I think GFSA need to relook their stats, because it’s questionable...

Baddies does not use legal guns for the most part. So if they looked at ALL firearm related crimes (not only firearm crime where LEGAL guns were involved) the picture would be much different...
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Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by snoopy » Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:59 pm

That political lobby group has a way of very cleverly wording its narratives. And their followers follow that like lemmings to the slaughter. The truth about them will float to the top eventually. Like many things, it started with good intention...and was started by a clergyman in 1995, one year before our NEW Constitution saw the light. As a reverent he should have had a better understanding of the human condition...than to direct the small lobby group to where it went, as even clergymen in his church affiliation across the globe are legal firearm owners.
Last edited by snoopy on Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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