Self defense poll

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Self defense weapons

Poll ended at Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:42 pm

Do you own a self defense firearm
82
31%
Dont own a self defense firearm
54
20%
Do you always carry
22
8%
Do you occasionally carry
46
17%
Do you never carry
24
9%
Do you carry something other than firearm ( tazer/ pepper spray)
40
15%
 
Total votes: 268
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Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by cage » Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:17 pm

excolonial wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:33 pm
..until the "poor misunderstood soul" who was out on walkies picked this poor child up and simply tossed him off the fourth floor, all the while blaming others for allowing him to do it.
In this example it was a schizophrenic who shouldn't have been let out alone. Not sure that is the best of examples to use.
Society needs people pushing the boundaries, it is how we eventually grow as a people, once the ideology has been watered down somewhat, to be more reflective of typical people that tend to be middle of the road with a slight left or right leaning.

Unfortunately too much emphasis and airtime has been given to extremes on both ends, party because it's good for ratings and partly because media companies are trying too hard to be seen as balanced.

With the current state of dysfunction the only way authorities can deal with problems is by restricting freedoms and additional nannying. The responsible are always prejudiced by those that are either unable or unwilling to be.
Lowest common dominator stuff.
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Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by cage » Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:20 pm

snoopy wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:40 pm
I'm glad to report again that in SA no legal gun conspired to a mass murder in SA over the past week, and no legal gun jumped up to commit a mass killing in SA either.
Must have missed this event then, not a mass killing but a child should count for something.

https://www.timeslive.co.za/news/south- ... cape-town/
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Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by snoopy » Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:23 pm

OK, wait for it ...the gun conspired by itself to do it, it aimed itself and discharged itself..and...its was a MASS killing? Really? :?

Its the human factor that needs addressing. Not the tool. In the absence of such tool the same would have been done by some other means.

14-year-old stabs fellow pupil to death over cellphone
News24 2019-09-10

Off-duty police officer stabbed to death in Cape Town
News24 2019-09-08

CT woman arrested for allegedly fatally stabbing boyfriend
Cape Town EWN Sep 7, 2019
Last edited by snoopy on Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by Whirly » Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:27 pm

snoopy wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:23 pm
OK, wait for it ...the gun conspired by itself to do it, it aimed itself and discharged itself..and...its was a MASS killing? Really? :?

Its the human factor that needs addressing. Not the tool. In the absence of such tool the same would have been done by some other means.
snoopy,

You know the definition of insanity...........................................................? :roll: You will never convince some, so don't keep trying.

The mother in Mpumalanga used rat poison to kill her four children, so you are so right, but some will never see the reasoning.

Whirly.
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Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by snoopy » Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:30 pm

Yup - I added 3 local examples (above) to point that out again ...there are many more to add over past few days.

And if he scrolled down on his own quoted article.

Eight children killed, two wounded in China school attack
03 September 2019 -BY AFP

Mass killing - Attack with a knife not a gun. And THAT fruitcake had been given an early release from prison last year after serving a sentence for attempted murder... :idea:

Now with our porous borders - its probably better not to know whats roaming around our streets in SA these days.
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Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by excolonial » Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:48 pm

cage wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:17 pm

In this example it was a schizophrenic who shouldn't have been let out alone. Not sure that is the best of examples to use.
Society needs people pushing the boundaries, it is how we eventually grow as a people, once the ideology has been watered down somewhat, to be more reflective of typical people that tend to be middle of the road with a slight left or right leaning.

Unfortunately too much emphasis and airtime has been given to extremes on both ends, party because it's good for ratings and partly because media companies are trying too hard to be seen as balanced.

With the current state of dysfunction the only way authorities can deal with problems is by restricting freedoms and additional nannying. The responsible are always prejudiced by those that are either unable or unwilling to be.
Lowest common dominator stuff.
Even worse - his supervisor was off somewhere else - complete dereliction of duty. No consequences for the consulting specialist or indeed the delinquent carer. They would certainly propose more nannying, more restriction on everyone, rather than enforcing existing laws correctly, and restricting the liberties of the guilty and the deranged. Precisely my point about ideology vs reality. This is one of many nearly identical incidents, where someone with clear and evident tendencies was allowed to walk free, and ended up killing people. A schizophrenic killer was released from care after only four years, he murdered a jogger in Richmond park only a few weeks after his release. Again clearly symptomatic of a justice system, and mental health "professionals" completely out of touch with reality. No consequences for the decision makers, and I dare say very little contrition.
The older I get, the more I am convinced that "A Confederacy of Dunces" is non fiction.
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Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by cage » Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:32 pm

Snoopy, if you don't want to see that a dangerous person with a knife is less of a risk than a dangerous person with a gun, then it will be really difficult finding common ground beyond that.
No one has said that people aren't a problem, nor that crime and death would end if guns disappear altogether, or that knives can't kill.
The UK data clearly shows that crime carries on, just fewer people die because of it.

If someone sidles up to your car window to separate you from it with a knife vs a 9mm where do you think the odds sit?
Which is easier to resist and defend against?

No matter how much you don't want to admit it, guns are an enabler, they make it easier to commit crime and put the odds in the criminals favour.

I am sure you, like many others, are responsible owners. That isn't true of everyone, you don't have to look far to see the stupidity in this world and then realise that muppet could be armed.
You are never going to remove the idiot or the criminal from society. All you can do is limit their access and ability to do harm and that will come at a cost to those that are careful and responsible.
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Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by cage » Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:43 pm

excolonial wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:48 pm
.. A schizophrenic killer was released from care after only four years, he murdered a jogger in Richmond park only a few weeks after his release. Again clearly symptomatic of a justice system, and mental health "professionals" completely out of touch with reality. No consequences for the decision makers, and I dare say very little contrition.
This is probably a topic in and of itself.
It may be a UK-specific thing, they really do have a victim mentality - if you commit a crime you are a victim, they should feel sorry for you, punishment is stressful so you shouldn't overdo it.
The justice system keeps failing those that really suffer and it is taken advantage of by criminals - remember Mr Dewani?

Justice is not seen to be done.
The prison system is like club med (the 3-star version) as you can't affect people's rights or standards.

It's all limp-wristed and ineffective and does nothing to discourage crime.
Austerity has just compounded the issues, so the current increases in crime are not surprising.

A couple of months ago I was wandering around the east-village, I did look over my shoulder a couple of times. There are some proper little hooded, yobbo shites around - under age, buying booze.
They definitely have a few challenges ahead.
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Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by SlowApproach » Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:30 pm

cage wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:32 pm
...if you don't want to see that a dangerous person with a knife is less of a risk than a dangerous person with a gun...
Cage, I'm afraid you're wrong. Dead wrong. You CAN bring a knife to a gunfight, and more often than not, in typical perp-victim gunfight range, the knife will win. Ask any experienced cop from anywhere: They tend to be more afraid of a suspect with a knife than a suspect with a gun. (It is well documented that an attacker with a knife can actually kill you before you can even draw your firearm if he's within 29 feet. That's why law enforcement agencies practise what is called the Tueller Drill, a.k.a. the "21 Foot Drill" or "21 Foot Principle", as explained thus:



I've been stabbed by a crim. Luckily my arm was in the way and if wasn't for a car door also getting in the way of successive stabs, I wouldn't be around now. (Just bled out a bit...)
Behind every angry woman is a man who has absolutely no idea what he did wrong.
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Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by cage » Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:43 pm

SlowApproach wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:30 pm
.. You CAN bring a knife to a gunfight, and more often than not, in typical perp-victim gunfight range, the knife will win.
I am aware of that (been shown before), which is not in dispute.
A knife cannot stab you through a door, and is less deadly at a distance.
Our smash and grab will stop someones hand coming through, not a bullet.

Of course you can kill people with a knife, just not as many.
Not one of those mass shootings would have had those numbers of fatalities had the perpetrator used a knife.

Replace those 40000 UK knife crimes with guns, there would be way more than 285 fatalities.

Edit: those instructors at around 10:55 talk about cover, how for a bullet you need to get something between you to stop it, for a knife anything will do to slow the attacker down and buy time. Sort of makes my point for me.
From the sounds of things all you need for self-defence is a decent knife. Makes sense to me.
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Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by Davidc » Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:26 am

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Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by snoopy » Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:36 am

oooo aarde mense wat word van die wereld? :lol: :twisted:

Te vroeg vir popcorn en bier - maar ek gaan nou maar net in "observe mode" bly van hier af. Eish mense...in die land van die blindes... :lol:

@cage - just dont ever ask or expect ANYONE with a legal gun to save your life, or that of your family ... you deserve so much better.
If you have armed response - you should cancel it. You dont want to be called a hypocrite or to be called an enabler of legal gun use, and you can't have it both ways. Rather save some more money for flying, and if (heaven forbid) the day comes that you really need a legal gun user to save your own life, or that of one of your family - remember this debate and your opinion.
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Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by cage » Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:09 am

snoopy wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:36 am
@cage - just dont ever ask or expect ANYONE with a legal gun to save your life, or that of your family ... you deserve so much better.
If you have armed response - you should cancel it. You dont want to be called a hypocrite or to be called an enabler of legal gun use, and you can't have it both ways. Rather save some more money for flying, and if (heaven forbid) the day comes that you really need a legal gun user to save your own life, or that of one of your family - remember this debate and your opinion.
Well, of all the people I know that have had a gun stuck in their face, no one came running to to save them. Carrying a weapon on them would have made it far worse and would have been stolen or worse.
Of all those millions of licensed firearms, few have done anything at all about violent crime, apart from gathering dust or increasing the risk of one ending up in the wrong hands.
I respect people's desire to own one, I just don't see why I should have the added risk of one of the (almost 30) daily stolen weapons pointed at myself or my family just so someone else can feel better or stoke their hero complex.
Yes, a good chunk of those stolen weapons originate from bent and stupid police but the rest also come from the man in the street.
The same man in the street who struggles with far more mundane responsibilities than owning a firearm.
The "greater good" and what it means to everyone else should also carry some weight.

There is no equation where a firearm is the ultimate answer (unless you are a dictator, perhaps). It is not, and it has never been.
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Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by cage » Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:12 am

Surprise - knives kill people.
This poor woman would still be alive if it was only knives. Drive-by stabbings just don't have the same effect.

https://www.sowetanlive.co.za/news/sout ... cape-town/
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Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by Davidc » Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:46 am

cage wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:12 am
Surprise - knives kill people.
This poor woman would still be alive if it was only knives. Drive-by stabbings just don't have the same effect.

https://www.sowetanlive.co.za/news/sout ... cape-town/
And these poor passengers would still be alive if it wasn’t for the plane..........oh wait it was the pilots fault????
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanwings_Flight_9525

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