A noteworthy day..

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Theuns v V
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Re: A noteworthy day..

Unread post by Theuns v V » Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:12 pm

Fransw wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 6:17 pm
Theuns v V wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 6:07 pm
I once heard that Kim said he cant deal with trompie as he (trompie) was to unpredictable and unstable. The kettle calling to pot black but some truth in it maybe...
Trompie? :lol: ..funny

Non political comments, back to the studio Naas..
At the end of the day Darren....trompie sounds more classy than trump :lol:
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Re: A noteworthy day..

Unread post by excolonial » Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:31 pm

Marius Schrenk wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 5:10 pm
cage wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 2:55 pm
Fransw wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:28 pm
I'm no historian. But please tell me what the fukc went wrong!??
A crazy, narcissistic megalomaniac with a bad hair cut got out of hand.
Spurred on by very depressing punitive actions by their(industrial) competitors after the first world war.Dooming them as a nation to bankruptcy.
Indeed and with histories greatest villain waiting for his opportunity to strike from the East - they really had few choices in the end. Hitler was wrong about just about everything from tactics to ideology, but he was certainly right about Stalin.

What an obscene waste the whole thing was, and the poor decisions of the western allies led to another 50 years of world chaos for not letting Hitler finish off Stalin before they attacked him...
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Re: A noteworthy day..

Unread post by Mfezi » Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:12 pm

excolonial wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:31 pm
What an obscene waste the whole thing was, and the poor decisions of the western allies led to another 50 years of world chaos for not letting Hitler finish off Stalin before they attacked him...
I'm a little curious about this statement - purely from a historical perspective: Which Western attack on Hitler are you referring to here? Are you saying the Western allies should have left Hitler alone and refrained from the bombing campaigns over Germany and the various smaller campaigns against them such as North Africa, Italy, the Battle of the Atlantic and so on that happened prior to the Normandy landings, or are you instead suggesting that the D-Day invasion itself should have waited? The latter doesn't make sense from a chronological point of view, since the Soviets were in an extremely strong position by that time and already preparing to launch Operation Bagration. By then it was more a case of Stalin getting ready to finish Hitler off than the other way around. I'm probably missing your meaning somewhere.

As an aside, I understand and partially agree with limiting the post-WWII Soviet/communist influence in Eastern Europe and the rest of the world, but doing so by wishing for a German victory over the USSR? Considering what Hitler had planned for the Slavic people and already done quite effectively against the civilian population of the occupied parts of the Soviet Union, this seems to border on a wish for genocide. I guess the idea would be for Hitler to win while behaving like a normal human being, but that requires a fairy tale alternative history in which WWII probably wouldn't have happened in the first place.
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Re: A noteworthy day..

Unread post by excolonial » Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:33 pm

Mfezi wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:12 pm
excolonial wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:31 pm
What an obscene waste the whole thing was, and the poor decisions of the western allies led to another 50 years of world chaos for not letting Hitler finish off Stalin before they attacked him...
I'm a little curious about this statement - purely from a historical perspective: Which Western attack on Hitler are you referring to here? Are you saying the Western allies should have left Hitler alone and refrained from the bombing campaigns over Germany and the various smaller campaigns against them such as North Africa, Italy, the Battle of the Atlantic and so on that happened prior to the Normandy landings, or are you instead suggesting that the D-Day invasion itself should have waited? The latter doesn't make sense from a chronological point of view, since the Soviets were in an extremely strong position by that time and already preparing to launch Operation Bagration. By then it was more a case of Stalin getting ready to finish Hitler off than the other way around. I'm probably missing your meaning somewhere.
My perspective on the whole thing, which was apparently roughly what Churchill wanted albeit not as directly punitive on uncle Joe is loosely as follows:

Stalin and his regime should not have been supported materially or militarily until that POS and his criminal cabal were removed from power. No-one was under any illusions about his intentions or the nature of his regime. The opening of the Western front should have been limited to resource denial(oil, Rubber, food et al), and no full scale invasion should have been made until the Wehrmacht had either destroyed the red Army or spent itself trying. Hitler the giant sociopathic clown that he was squandered simple opportunities to unite Stalins many opponents(Poles, Ukranianans, Russians, Baltic states) against him, rather he chose to brutalise them and treat them much the same as Stalin himself would. In doing so he ensured he would not have any chance at consolidating his gains and any lasting success. The Wehrmacht were already massively over-extended, and the mere threat of invasion would ensure this would continue. So why oh why did the Yanks in particular help him and squander a bunch of their young men, and countless others in the 50 years since?

It is a long complex question best discussed over at least a bottle of Scotch, not the simplistic waffle I have written here, but there you have it. I have read many accounts of the eastern front, and in almost every one the resource help was mentioned by the authors as being a clear indicator the war was lost. After ambushing a food convoy of Ford trucks, one particular writer noted that they found the Russians were eating tinned American cake for dessert while they were using their horses as mobile butcheries.

The other Nuances at the start of the war were also a massive failing on the part of all the Western Allies, but that is universally agreed, and well documented. I am still of the opinion the whole thing, other than perhaps the conflict with Stalin could have been avoided quite easily. Hindsight is 20/20 of course.
The older I get, the more I am convinced that "A Confederacy of Dunces" is non fiction.
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Re: A noteworthy day..

Unread post by Mfezi » Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:55 pm

Understood, and agreed that it requires a much longer discussion.

I do think the alternatives as you propose require a certain amount of clairvoyance, as you also stated, that obviously wasn't available. Also, at the time Hitler certainly was the bigger threat to the West due to Germany's geographical location in Europe and its extremely aggressive and demonstrated expansionist policy (the Soviet Union was still a bit of an enigma in that sense at that particular time). As things went the Soviets still did by far the majority of the fighting and blood shedding against Hitler, so supporting their efforts did at least have the partial desired effect of leaving a lot less Germans to fight once the big invasion from the West did come.

Expecting or waiting for Stalin to be removed: Very unlikely, especially since after the initial disaster of 1941 he was actually winning (in the strategic sense of course, the price in blood was massive). The Western material support certainly compressed the time scales somewhat, but considering the fight the Soviets were putting up even before lend-lease really started to kick in and the brutal regime that had no interest in giving up no matter what the cost, the final outcome may have been very similar either way. However, prolonging the demise of the Third Reich would have impacted more than just the Soviets - it would have given Hitler more time to implement his "final solution", which brings us once again back to spectre of genocide.

I agree that things would have gone much better for Hitler if he treated the occupied peoples better, but to do so would have gone against his nature and everything that he stood for. You could basically also say you wish Stalin was a better person.

I used to find these "what-if" scenarios very interesting, but I guess in the end you start to realize history is what it was and one change that initially appears to be a good idea might actually have made things worse - therefore my remarks about genocide. One can only look back and at least be thankful that (a) Hitler and the Japanese did lose in the end (b) Stalin eventually died (he was in office until his death) and (c) the Soviet Union eventually broke up. Unfortunately, the death and utter destruction of WWII is now so far into the past that its lessons are also clearly being forgotten by today's politicians. Let's hope that one will never see destruction of that scope again.

By the way, it appears that we have a similar interest in WWII and the Eastern Front in particular. I have built up quite a collection from the better known English-language historians on the topic of the Eastern Front: Glantz, Erickson, Craig, Beevor, etc. Since I can also speak and read Russian (long story), I also have quite a lot of Russian books on the topic giving some interesting insights from that side. One thing that I think I can say on behalf of the Russians and the other peoples that made up the Soviet Union at the time (I have zero sympathy towards Stalin) - the impact of the war on them at a personal level is still much deeper than in the West. Basically every family lost someone in the war and many lost a lot more - the scope of the destruction and loss of human life for them is difficult to fully comprehend, but you get some inkling when you speak to especially the older generation from there. It again makes one thankful that the war didn't last one day longer than it did.
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Re: A noteworthy day..

Unread post by excolonial » Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:24 pm

Mfezi wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:55 pm

By the way, it appears that we have a similar interest in WWII and the Eastern Front in particular. I have built up quite a collection from the better known English-language historians on the topic of the Eastern Front: Glantz, Erickson, Craig, Beevor, etc. Since I can also speak and read Russian (long story), I also have quite a lot of Russian books on the topic giving some interesting insights from that side. One thing that I think I can say on behalf of the Russians and the other peoples that made up the Soviet Union at the time (I have zero sympathy towards Stalin) - the impact of the war on them at a personal level is still much deeper than in the West. Basically every family lost someone in the war and many lost a lot more - the scope of the destruction and loss of human life for them is difficult to fully comprehend, but you get some inkling when you speak to especially the older generation from there. It again makes one thankful that the war didn't last one day longer than it did.
Agreed, Politicians seem forever bent on conflict.

I tend to stick to first person narratives these days, I find them more absorbing, and simply authentic even if they are not necessarily so. The best book I have read about this, and perhaps the most depressing from a humanity perspective is this:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sniper-Eastern ... B005586WRW

The fact that he looks like a giant galloping nerd, and yet is arguably the most lethal sniper to have ever lived makes it all the more disconcerting. Easy reading yet hard going.
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Re: A noteworthy day..

Unread post by C Africa » Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:53 am

It was mentioned that the West was partly to blame for the war because of the way they treated Germany after the first world war.

Without expressing an opinion abut that, I would like to add that the actions of the USA certainly precipitated the attack on Pearl harbour by the Japanese.


C
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