Robert Mugabe has died

Aviation Trivia, Jokes & Humour

Moderator: Moderators

HJK 414
Fife Thousand feet
Fife Thousand feet
Posts: 5496
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:34 pm
Closest Airfield: abcd
Location: wandering ...
Has liked: 62 times
Been liked: 357 times

Re: Robert Mugabe has died

Unread post by HJK 414 » Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:21 pm

GPsucks wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:13 pm
Jack / Eddie, there are none so blind. Etc. #-o

GPsucks,

Eddie was up in the North as well - he understands the reality......no concern there,
My post was more in line with the fact that we all seem to "forget" or conveniently "smooth over" the ugliness of Africa as it has happened.
Yet a lot of us know people that have not just lost the livelihood / assets - but also family members, and they are not really comfortable with the "balanced view" or "political correctness" that seems to be par for the course at late.


JK
User avatar
Jack Welles
Tree Tousand
Tree Tousand
Posts: 3836
Joined: Mon Dec 02, 2013 1:15 pm
Closest Airfield: FACT
Location: Muizenberg
Has liked: 23 times
Been liked: 183 times

Re: Robert Mugabe has died

Unread post by Jack Welles » Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:41 pm

With the greatest respect, okes have conveniently ignored the fact that I wrote that, in my view, his running of Zimbabwe ended badly, very badly.

When evaluating people it doesn't pay to concentrate on one isolated aspect and then extrapolate that and claim it represents the whole. This applies equally to the many who now "venerate" him as an African hero. That, too, is a lopsided approach.

I prefer a rational, balanced analysis (with regard to all situations, not just about Mugabe) which eschews emotional reactions.

In the instant case, for example, to point to individuals that may have lost (whites) or gained (blacks) by Mugabe's (especially later) actions does not help the analysis as it arouses emotions that cloud the issue.

As an aside: I also think that personal comments aimed at posters (when one disagrees with a point of view) are the last resort of those with no cogent, intellectual arguments to put forward.
Jack Welles (thriller_author pen name)
https://www.amazon.com/Jack-Welles/e/B073VJQTTX
Eddie Haynes-Smart
Textbook - "The Lore of Negotiation"
http://www.loreofnegotiation.com
Tony Forrester
Avionics Master On
Posts: 69
Joined: Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:56 pm
Closest Airfield: Fabb
Has liked: 33 times
Been liked: 13 times

Re: Robert Mugabe has died

Unread post by Tony Forrester » Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:36 pm

"As an aside: I also think that personal comments aimed at posters (when one disagrees with a point of view) are the last resort of those with no cogent, intellectual arguments to put forward." :lol: :lol: [-X [-X Oh that is a choice one! How about the backhanded slap..."..wont suit folk with an axe to grind"? Well, as an african born white citizen, I have an axe to grind with incompetent politicians and the disastrous effects the have on the whole population, of all races. And the inference that only YOUR noble, rational and balanced approach is the only one acceptable, is tainted with self-righteousness. :shock: :shock: Is your retort the result of a failure to stand up to reproach? :cry: Do you now not agree with my point of view? I am sorry that your "intellectual" argument is not congruent with my sub-intellectual moronic facts of reality. :evil:
These users liked the author Tony Forrester for the post (total 2):
machwarpSwartbok
Airwayfreak
1k poster
1k poster
Posts: 1175
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 9:56 am
Closest Airfield: FAJS
Location: Johannesburg
Has liked: 11 times
Been liked: 59 times

Re: Robert Mugabe has died

Unread post by Airwayfreak » Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:54 pm

One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.

Many people grieved the death of Verwoerd, others rejoiced. It just depends where your ideologies lie
User avatar
Jack Welles
Tree Tousand
Tree Tousand
Posts: 3836
Joined: Mon Dec 02, 2013 1:15 pm
Closest Airfield: FACT
Location: Muizenberg
Has liked: 23 times
Been liked: 183 times

Re: Robert Mugabe has died

Unread post by Jack Welles » Sun Sep 08, 2019 7:49 pm

Airwayfreak wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:54 pm
One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. Many people grieved the death of Verwoerd, others rejoiced. It just depends where your ideologies lie
This exactly underpins my point that a balanced analysis takes all viewpoints into consideration.

The "play-the-man-instead-of-the-ball" is a sure indicator of a weak position in a debate.

For an excellent example of a sensible argument contradicting my evaluation (which is just an opinion after all) was an earlier poster who suggested that Mugabe's early successes were a function of his having inherited a thriving economy with "assets in the bank". While I might feel that that is debateable it is a worthy argument.

Most of these other responses have the substance of an undercooked marshmallow!
Jack Welles (thriller_author pen name)
https://www.amazon.com/Jack-Welles/e/B073VJQTTX
Eddie Haynes-Smart
Textbook - "The Lore of Negotiation"
http://www.loreofnegotiation.com
Swartbok
Frequent AvComer
Posts: 754
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2014 6:15 pm
Closest Airfield: Wonderboom
Location: Gauteng
Has liked: 26 times
Been liked: 76 times

Re: Robert Mugabe has died

Unread post by Swartbok » Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:18 pm

Jack Welles wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 7:49 pm
Airwayfreak wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:54 pm
One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. Many people grieved the death of Verwoerd, others rejoiced. It just depends where your ideologies lie
This exactly underpins my point that a balanced analysis takes all viewpoints into consideration.

The "play-the-man-instead-of-the-ball" is a sure indicator of a weak position in a debate.

For an excellent example of a sensible argument contradicting my evaluation (which is just an opinion after all) was an earlier poster who suggested that Mugabe's early successes were a function of his having inherited a thriving economy with "assets in the bank". While I might feel that that is debateable it is a worthy argument.

Most of these other responses have the substance of an undercooked marshmallow!
With all due respect.

You mean something like,quite a few previous occasions on various threads where you yourself have resorted to name calling (of groups of people most often), on which I have called you out on various occasions ?
I’m sure you’ll notice the poster mentioned authors, and not an author specifically.

And no I’m not going back through all our posts in the past to quote them for you, sorry.

Getting a bit emotional there Ed ? Careful, it clouds rational reasoning (or something like that).

Eie medisyne is nie lekker nie. (Own medicine stings)
Last edited by Swartbok on Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Flying is like sex. I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I could stand.
Tony Forrester
Avionics Master On
Posts: 69
Joined: Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:56 pm
Closest Airfield: Fabb
Has liked: 33 times
Been liked: 13 times

Re: Robert Mugabe has died

Unread post by Tony Forrester » Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:29 pm

"The "play-the-man-instead-of-the-ball" is a sure indicator of a weak position in a debate." Yawn. :roll: Who was playing "the ball" in the first place? The "debate" never existed, but sometimes I do need the distraction... :( As for "balanced analysis", that would require most, if not all the information pertinent to the research, something seriously lacking, judging by the previous posts. And do come up with something less mundane than the prosaic, as they do add to the humour, but contribute nothing the the crux of the issue, and that is that dear rob, aka rotting rob, was a typical african leading parasite, with zero redeeming attributes. And the is no balance, no reasoning, nor any fathomable understanding of why he should be called a hero. Or maybe someone would like to write a novel, "The Hero of Harare", after all, truth is stranger than fiction. ]Not that I would know, I do not write any of it...]
User avatar
Ugly Duckling
Six Tousand
Six Tousand
Posts: 6468
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2006 2:24 pm
Closest Airfield: Brakpan Benoni FABB
Location: Waterkloof
Has liked: 403 times
Been liked: 309 times

Re: Robert Mugabe has died

Unread post by Ugly Duckling » Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:40 pm

Like it or not. I do not shed any tears at the passing of the so called "freedom fighters".

Rhodesia, South Africa, Mozambique, Angola, among others, have been sold down the river by politicians abroad in the hope that the riches of Africa are available once "peace" is restored.
Those leaders have benefited whilst their supporters have sucked the proverbial [-X.
These users liked the author Ugly Duckling for the post (total 3):
Tony ForresterSwartbokexcolonial
Paul Sabatier EAA Ch 575, SSSA, ERGC, ERFC, AeroClub
Long time Cygnet builder
The object is to fly, it does not matter what the object is!
User avatar
Ugly Duckling
Six Tousand
Six Tousand
Posts: 6468
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2006 2:24 pm
Closest Airfield: Brakpan Benoni FABB
Location: Waterkloof
Has liked: 403 times
Been liked: 309 times

Re: Robert Mugabe has died

Unread post by Ugly Duckling » Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:44 pm

The man tells it like it is =D>
These users liked the author Ugly Duckling for the post (total 3):
SwartbokTony ForresterHappyJabi
Paul Sabatier EAA Ch 575, SSSA, ERGC, ERFC, AeroClub
Long time Cygnet builder
The object is to fly, it does not matter what the object is!
Swartbok
Frequent AvComer
Posts: 754
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2014 6:15 pm
Closest Airfield: Wonderboom
Location: Gauteng
Has liked: 26 times
Been liked: 76 times

Re: Robert Mugabe has died

Unread post by Swartbok » Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:08 pm

Ugly Duckling wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:44 pm
The man tells it like it is =D>


Coming Soon, to a cowntry near you
These users liked the author Swartbok for the post:
Chalkie
Flying is like sex. I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I could stand.
Swartbok
Frequent AvComer
Posts: 754
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2014 6:15 pm
Closest Airfield: Wonderboom
Location: Gauteng
Has liked: 26 times
Been liked: 76 times

Re: Robert Mugabe has died

Unread post by Swartbok » Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:37 pm

I’m always gobsmacked by the eternal optimist Mythbusters who spend their time trying to polish turds. :wink:
These users liked the author Swartbok for the post (total 2):
Ugly DucklingTony Forrester
Flying is like sex. I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I could stand.
CAV
Flight Planning
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:30 am
Closest Airfield: Fabl
Location: Bloem
Has liked: 1 time
Been liked: 1 time

Re: Robert Mugabe has died

Unread post by CAV » Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:56 am

Robert has left the group
User avatar
Jack Welles
Tree Tousand
Tree Tousand
Posts: 3836
Joined: Mon Dec 02, 2013 1:15 pm
Closest Airfield: FACT
Location: Muizenberg
Has liked: 23 times
Been liked: 183 times

Re: Robert Mugabe has died

Unread post by Jack Welles » Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:49 am

I will not respond to any personal stuff because it doesn't advance the debate.

There are two (subjective) sets of axes been ground with regard to Mugabe and his legacy.

In the one corner, wearing the black shorts, are those who believe that Mugabe is one of the icons of the African struggle to be free of colonialism. They are blind to the bad that he subsequently did.

In the other corner, wearing the white shorts, are those who feel he was the devil incarnate because of all the bad things he did, especially later on. They are blind to the fact that he may have done some good, especially in the early years leading up, and just subsequent, to independence in Rhodesia/Zimbabwe.

The voice of reason suggests that an objective, rational, balanced assessment would try and reconcile the two. My version of this is necessarily short (it being social media). He started out good and ended up bad. Which is where I came in so, as far as this thread goes, it would also fittingly be my swansong.

As an aside: I was there for UDI - were you?
Jack Welles (thriller_author pen name)
https://www.amazon.com/Jack-Welles/e/B073VJQTTX
Eddie Haynes-Smart
Textbook - "The Lore of Negotiation"
http://www.loreofnegotiation.com
HJK 414
Fife Thousand feet
Fife Thousand feet
Posts: 5496
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:34 pm
Closest Airfield: abcd
Location: wandering ...
Has liked: 62 times
Been liked: 357 times

Re: Robert Mugabe has died

Unread post by HJK 414 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:42 am

Jack Welles wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:49 am

………..
The voice of reason suggests that an objective, rational, balanced assessment would try and reconcile the two. My version of this is necessarily short (it being social media). He started out good and ended up bad. Which is where I came in ...........
Eddie,

No offence intended, but is that not exactly what this time period we live in is all about ?
Trying to "reason" away in a "balanced view" all those things that need not be excused - and are simply evil and wrong ??
How do we become objective, rational and balanced about things such as S'brenica / Muslim attacks and bombings in Europe / Idi Amin / Mr Mugabe and many others ......

Why do we need to placate our own souls with "political correctness" / or with reasoned argument.
I come from a period when we could call bad and evil exactly that ......

Mugabe was an evil man and the only "good" he did was at the expense of the wealth generated by others.
His electorate was uneducated and believed the spin / and were cajoled into a following that never brought them anything but poverty and grief.

Why do we all have an issue calling a spade a spade ??
Have we all lost the ability to simply name things as they are ?

JK
HJK 414
Fife Thousand feet
Fife Thousand feet
Posts: 5496
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:34 pm
Closest Airfield: abcd
Location: wandering ...
Has liked: 62 times
Been liked: 357 times

Re: Robert Mugabe has died

Unread post by HJK 414 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:59 am

Jack Welles wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:49 am
I will not respond to any personal stuff because it doesn't advance the debate.

.........As an aside: I was there for UDI - were you?

On one side you do not want "personal stuff" - and then you do it yourself ….. :?:

No - we had already moved South in 1965 / we were in Bulawayo by then on our way to SA.
But I remember the festivities after the news came through about the UDI being signed


JK

Return to “123.45”