Robert Mugabe has died

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Jack Welles
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Re: Robert Mugabe has died

Unread post by Jack Welles » Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:01 am

HJK 414 wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:42 am
Jack Welles wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:49 am
………..
The voice of reason suggests that an objective, rational, balanced assessment would try and reconcile the two. My version of this is necessarily short (it being social media). He started out good and ended up bad. Which is where I came in ...........
Eddie, No offence intended, but is that not exactly what this time period we live in is all about ?
Trying to "reason" away in a "balanced view" all those things that need not be excused - and are simply evil and wrong ??
How do we become objective, rational and balanced about things such as S'brenica / Muslim attacks and bombings in Europe / Idi Amin / Mr Mugabe and many others ......

Why do we need to placate our own souls with "political correctness" / or with reasoned argument.
I come from a period when we could call bad and evil exactly that ......

Mugabe was an evil man and the only "good" he did was at the expense of the wealth generated by others.
His electorate was uneducated and believed the spin / and were cajoled into a following that never brought them anything but poverty and grief.

Why do we all have an issue calling a spade a spade ??
Have we all lost the ability to simply name things as they are ? JK
I get what you're saying, JK, but I thought that it was the entirety of Mugabe's legacy I was addressing, not just how he ended up, which was pretty ghastly or even evil, if you like. I would try to be just as objective about, say, a Verwoerd legacy or even a Hitler legacy, if the occasion arose. In other words I don't believe my approach is about being politically correct it was more about being historically accurate.

As an aside: there's no chance of offence being taken when reasoned argument is deployed, but thanks for the clarification anyway :D
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Re: Robert Mugabe has died

Unread post by Jack Welles » Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:08 am

HJK 414 wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:59 am
Jack Welles wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:49 am
I will not respond to any personal stuff because it doesn't advance the debate.

.........As an aside: I was there for UDI - were you?
On one side you do not want "personal stuff" - and then you do it yourself ….. :?: JK
Just for clarification: what I mean by "personal" (because this accords with the definition of the word) is when an individual is addressed specifically. General comments about groups of people is not personal. Perhaps the difference between the correct meaning of the word "personal" as opposed to "groups" gets lost in translation.

I say this because earlier someone posted that I was personal about groups which is, of course an oxymoron. OTOH I probably do slip up on occasion and if it's pointed out I would apologise, especially if the connotations are negative.

EDIT: it suddenly occurred to me that you referring to me about being personal because of my general query as to whether any reader may have been there for UDI at the same time as myself. I was just curious. Maybe swop war stories.
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Re: Robert Mugabe has died

Unread post by HJK 414 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:23 am

Jack Welles wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:08 am

EDIT: it suddenly occurred to me that you referring to me about being personal because of my general query as to whether any reader may have been there for UDI at the same time as myself. I was just curious. Maybe swop war stories.

Yes,

My apologies are then in place.
I interpreted it in the sense of "I was there" and therefore my "opinion" carries more weight …… or something to that effect …
Once again - apology - sometimes interpretation without hearing intonation is dicey.

JK
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Re: Robert Mugabe has died

Unread post by Swartbok » Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:29 am

HJK 414 wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:23 am
Jack Welles wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:08 am

EDIT: it suddenly occurred to me that you referring to me about being personal because of my general query as to whether any reader may have been there for UDI at the same time as myself. I was just curious. Maybe swop war stories.

Yes,

My apologies are then in place.
I interpreted it in the sense of "I was there" and therefore my "opinion" carries more weight …… or something to that effect …
Once again - apology - sometimes interpretation without hearing intonation is dicey.

JK
That’s how I interpreted it as well.

Except for that though, and in the context of group vs a person, I haven’t read any personal “play the man” kinda comments. Did I miss something?
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Re: Robert Mugabe has died

Unread post by Jack Welles » Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:32 am

HJK 414 wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:23 am
Jack Welles wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:08 am
EDIT: it suddenly occurred to me that you referring to me about being personal because of my general query as to whether any reader may have been there for UDI at the same time as myself. I was just curious. Maybe swop war stories.
Yes, My apologies are then in place. I interpreted it in the sense of "I was there" and therefore my "opinion" carries more weight …… or something to that effect … Once again - apology - sometimes interpretation without hearing intonation is dicey. JK
:D no apology needed, perhaps a writer should be practised enough not leave that sort of comment open to more than one interpretation. Re-reading it, I can quite see how it might be taken in that way :oops:
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Re: Robert Mugabe has died

Unread post by Fransw » Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:32 am

HJK 414 wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:23 am
Jack Welles wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:08 am

EDIT: it suddenly occurred to me that you referring to me about being personal because of my general query as to whether any reader may have been there for UDI at the same time as myself. I was just curious. Maybe swop war stories.

Yes,

My apologies are then in place.
I interpreted it in the sense of "I was there" and therefore my "opinion" carries more weight …… or something to that effect …
Once again - apology - sometimes interpretation without hearing intonation is dicey.

JK
No

A signed document (UDI) is worth nothing. No matter if you were there or not!..

Are you in Espana yet?
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Re: Robert Mugabe has died

Unread post by HJK 414 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:38 am

Fransw wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:32 am

No

A signed document (UDI) is worth nothing. No matter if you were there or not!..

Are you in Espana yet?

Frans,

The UDI was very important !!
Independence for a nation that was a colony under British rule …….
Read the history - Malaya was another example.

Spain - Yes - I drove down on Saturday
2046 kilometres / just under 16 hours ……
Very quiet on the roads (only Lyon was a mess)

JK
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Re: Robert Mugabe has died

Unread post by Fransw » Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:43 am

HJK 414 wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:38 am
Fransw wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:32 am

No

A signed document (UDI) is worth nothing. No matter if you were there or not!..

Are you in Espana yet?

Frans,

The UDI was very important !!
Independence for a nation that was a colony under British rule …….
Read the history - Malaya was another example.

Spain - Yes - I drove down on Saturday
2046 kilometres / just under 16 hours ……
Very quiet on the roads (only Lyon was a mess)

JK
Independence from British rule to dependent on dictator rule.. :?

Why was Lyon a mess. Traffic, riots or what?
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Re: Robert Mugabe has died

Unread post by Jack Welles » Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:44 am

Fransw wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:32 am
HJK 414 wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:23 am
Jack Welles wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:08 am
EDIT: it suddenly occurred to me that you referring to me about being personal because of my general query as to whether any reader may have been there for UDI at the same time as myself. I was just curious. Maybe swop war stories.
Yes, My apologies are then in place.
I interpreted it in the sense of "I was there" and therefore my "opinion" carries more weight …… or something to that effect …
Once again - apology - sometimes interpretation without hearing intonation is dicey. JK
No A signed document (UDI) is worth nothing. No matter if you were there or not!.. Are you in Espana yet?
Hmmm! Have to take issue with that. To those of us in Rhodesia at the time UDI seemed a pretty momentous happening (and it had all sorts of consequences, some even leading eventually to Mugabe taking over) and the UK political response seemed to indicate that Whitehall felt the same way about it.

Worth nothing? The country was run independently of the Crown from then on so that signed document must have been worth something, no?

Not to mention that it was the first time that the UN used sanctions against a country, IIRC.

EDIT: Wikipedia:
"it was the first unilateral break from the United Kingdom by one of its colonies since the Irish Proclamation of Independence in 1916, and the first one since the United States Declaration of Independence in 1776 to succeed.
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Re: Robert Mugabe has died

Unread post by HJK 414 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:28 am

Fransw wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:43 am

Independence from British rule to dependent on dictator rule.. :?

Why was Lyon a mess. Traffic, riots or what?

Frans,

read Eddie's response - he is right …… it was a significant event …..

Lyon - I was in Lyon around 11 in the morning (I left Germany at 04.00 hr) and it was simply a mess.
Accident in the city tunnel (one lane shut down) road works on the outbound next to the Rhone …….
just a general clusterfu….

But for the rest of the way - nothing significant - easy run down.

JK
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Re: Robert Mugabe has died

Unread post by Airwayfreak » Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:45 am

For the conspiracy theorists among us, Mugabe and Verwoerd died on the same day
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Re: Robert Mugabe has died

Unread post by excolonial » Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:30 pm

I don't understand the confusion here. The mans legacy is plain to see, and as it stands now there is nothing positive about it at all. The way I heard it told, was that most people celebrated the end of war, and they were willing to have anyone as leader as long as the killing stopped. The terror mechanism that he ran(albeit after all his superiors were wiped out) was certainly efficient in its work, that cannot be denied, and the patronage that followed will certainly have created some lifelong supporters.

He deliberately and with malice let loose the apocalypse on his own people after they rejected his umpteenth attempt to have himself named president for life, sugar coated with yet more fee stuff. How dare they?!? After all he built Zimbabwe from scratch, and managed it with great wisdom and benevolence. The white (and any non Zanu aligned) farmers were simply a useful diversion. An asset to be stripped and villain to be identified.

The only thing that stuck in my mind about the man from what was a surprisingly balanced documentary, was that he had no friends growing up. He was a brooding loner. A warning of his future self.
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Re: Robert Mugabe has died

Unread post by HJK 414 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:00 pm

excolonial wrote: I don't understand the confusion here. The mans legacy is plain to see, and as it stands now there is nothing positive about it at all. ………..

Hi P.

I don't think there is a confusion - it is more a matter of the discussion morphing into a question of whether the "balanced view" will find that Mugabe did good - before he did "bad". I find it a sign of the times that we try to "polish over" events with hindsight :

We now seem to see Mladic as a "confused man" that wanted to save his countrymen from being overrun.
To me he is simply an animal that murdered thousands of defenceless civilians - and no excuse will change those deaths.

We now see a debate where the Muslim community is pointing at the "angry white man" in Europe - as an excuse for the attacks on civilians.
To me that is hogwash - you wish to live in Western Europe - either adapt to our society - integrate as much as possible into the culture (and if you do not wish to do so - or it simply is not for you - try other shores) and if you do wish to stay - enjoy the lifestyle.
Yet - if you find us disgusting infidels - then just F...Off ...... As soon as you start killing civilians to show that society has to change to accommodate your type of animals it has gone beyond ridiculous. And there is no excuse or "reasonable debate possible anymore - ever.

If we look back at Mugabe - I do not have anything positive to remember - just misery and destruction.
(his family now live in wealth - whilst his country is in ashes)……. a disgrace.

I am for a reasoned debate - I am for a multicultural society (I think it enriches society as a whole) - but once they start attacking civilian and murdering people - for me - all debate is over, and no excuse will smooth that over.

JK
Last edited by HJK 414 on Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Robert Mugabe has died

Unread post by excolonial » Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:35 pm

Agreed 100%. It is clear that humans tend to try and remember only the good things, otherwise we would probably go mad. I find the refusal to differentiate right from wrong, and the constant quest for "apparent" balance provide nothing more than a salve for the conscience, and all too often an attempt at retrospective justification for positions taken in error.

The British government and its ruthless - albeit relatively sophisticated - propaganda machine have been endlessly trying to portray the actions of their government as it pertains to the colonies as acts of nobility, integrity and giving franchise to those who have none. The reality is they washed their hands of those with little value, and continued meddling in all others for as long as they could. I think there was a large element of arrogance in their handling of Rhodesia, I mean who were we to challenge the all knowing clowns of Westminster? They showed the boers and finally their own people precisely how far they would go to achieve their dominion. They continually portray many despots as former good guys who went bad, when the reality was these were probably their anointed pawns who decided not to play the game the way the meddling filth hoped they would, and finally rejected the UKs cheap access to resources. They are not alone in this, all the former colonial powers, plus the US, Russia and China did precisely the same.

Ag, this whole thing is a damp squib. He died way too late to have any real effect on what is now a failed state. History is littered with destroyers like him, in fact they seem to outweigh the decent and normal by about 10 to 1.
Last edited by excolonial on Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Robert Mugabe has died

Unread post by Marius Schrenk » Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:43 pm

:lol: :lol: Ex I have no horse in the race but I still enjoy the treatment Britten is getting from the EU on Brixet. (By the way I half heartedly wish them (Britten) good luck with the move) It must be hell to the pompoes lot to be told what to do. :wink:
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